[news] Government rejects pardon request for Alan Turing

[gmj]

BBC News - Government rejects pardon request for Alan Turing

 

Unbelievable. What a ridiculous decision.

[Theblacksheep]

Nice to know the Government supports the conviction.

[aerospacemango]

"A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence," he said.

 

I think that just about covers it.

 

It has nothing to do with the government, and everything to do with the law!

 

In 2009 former Prime Minister Gordon Brown issued an official apology to Mr Turing, labelling the treatment he had received as "utterly unfair" and "appalling".

 

That really should be the end of it.

[Jawloms]

I am not saying that I believe his conviction is correct because I don't, but if they overturned this they'll soon be up to their necks in petitions for eveyone who was convicted of homosexuality, being a witch etc.

[aerospacemango]

I am not saying that I believe his conviction is correct because I don't, but if they overturned this they'll soon be up to their necks in petitions for eveyone who was convicted of homosexuality, being a witch etc.

 

This is true.

 

The conviction was CORRECT, in law, at the time. We cannot go back and pardon people who have been convicted of a law that has been repealed.

[gmj]

Hmmmm….can see and certainly understand what you are saying here. Guessing that I just find it so unbelievably stupid that homosexuality was once deemed illegal. As for me, I certainly think that he should have been pardoned, but yes, do know and understand the points that you both have made.

[aerospacemango]

Hmmmm….can see and certainly understand what you are saying here. Guessing that I just find it so unbelievably stupid that homosexuality was once deemed illegal. As for me, I certainly think that he should have been pardoned, but yes, do know and understand the points that you both have made.

 

In many places, that is still the case!

 

It is a very sorry tale, as without the conviction he may have gone on to do even more brilliant work. Sadly, it seems as if it was the catalyst for his suicide. Now THAT is probably why the former PM apologised.

[Theblacksheep]

This is true.

 

The conviction was CORRECT, in law, at the time. We cannot go back and pardon people who have been convicted of a law that has been repealed.

 

Yes you can. Theres hundreds of examples of posthumous pardons, soldiers being shot for cowardice the most numerous.

 

The correct thing to do would be admit the law and the punishment of chemical castration was wrong.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Theblacksheep

[aerospacemango]

Yes you can. Theres hundreds of examples of posthumous pardons, soldiers being shot for cowardice the most numerous.

 

The correct thing to do would be admit the law and the punishment of chemical castration was wrong.

 

These would have been judged and convicted under military law, during operations, and doesn't really bear comparison.

 

http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ww1.htm

 

It has since been accepted that PTSD would have played a big part in those "cowardice" claims. Homosexuality is not an illness.

 

The pardon from Gordon Brown was an admittance that the punishment WAS wrong.

Edited February 7, 2012 by aerospacemango

[Theblacksheep]

These would have been judged and convicted under military law, during operations, and doesn't really bear comparison. It has since been accepted that PTSD would have played a big part in those "cowardice" claims. Homosexuality is not an illness.

 

The pardon from Gordon Brown was an admittance that the punishment WAS wrong.

 

PTSD is not in 100% of all cases of cowardice, not all cowardice executions were illness related. Many a man has been forced to fight against his will and had to face death.

 

It is my opinion that just because it was 'correct' (in law) at the time to imprison and dehumanise, doesn't mean it should stand now.

[GrumbleDook]

Yes you can. Theres hundreds of examples of posthumous pardons, soldiers being shot for cowardice most numerous.

 

The correct thing to do would be admit the law and the punishment of chemical castration was wrong.

 

Posthumous pardons for cowardice / desertion / refusal to soldier are generally where there was insufficient evidence for the conviction and sentence to have been correct in the first place, was where military law was used and the pardon is under civil law or where a change in law is then applied retrospectively at the time when the change is enacted.

 

Unfortunately, in this case there is little chance of a pardon and the most that could be applied is a formal apology. There are possibly some loopholes which had been spoken about due to military services, etc ... but I can't remember where these got to.

[aerospacemango]

PTSD is not in 100% of all cases of cowardice, not all cowardice executions were illness related. Many a man has been forced to fight against his will and had to face death.

 

It is my opinion that just because it was 'correct' (in law) at the time to imprison and dehumanise, doesn't mean it should stand now.

 

Were it so easy to roll back the years and change laws....

 

However, those WERE the laws of the time and, as unjust as it now appears to us, those were the criteria against which he was convicted.

 

The posthumous pardons for "cowardice" are better explained elsewhere, than I can do justice here!

 

I respect your opinion, and your right to have that opinion, and hope you are enjoying this discussion as much as I. (Still think you're wrong though....nar, nar, ne, nar, nar!!!!! )

[Theblacksheep]

Posthumous pardons for cowardice / desertion / refusal to soldier are generally where there was insufficient evidence for the conviction and sentence to have been correct in the first place, was where military law was used and the pardon is under civil law or where a change in law is then applied retrospectively at the time when the change is enacted.

 

All 306 WW1 soldiers shot for cowardice, regardless of evidence, medical reason or other factors have been pardoned.

 

Pardoned: the 306 soldiers shot at dawn for 'cowardice' - Telegraph

 

 

Were it so easy to roll back the years and change laws....

 

However, those WERE the laws of the time and, as unjust as it now appears to us, those were the criteria against which he was convicted.

 

I respect your opinion, and your right to have that opinion, and hope you are enjoying this discussion as much as I. (Still think you're wrong though....nar, nar, ne, nar, nar!!!!! )

 

Derek Bentley.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Theblacksheep

[aerospacemango]

Derek Bentley.

 

Ahhhh...The old "Let Him Ave It" argument! This is, as I explained in my earlier post, a miscarriage of justice.

 

Though Bentley had never been accused of attacking any of the police officers, who were shot at by Craig, for him to be convicted of murder as an accessory in a joint enterprise it was necessary for the prosecution to prove that he knew that Craig had a deadly weapon when they began the break-in. Lord Chief Justice Lord Bingham of Cornhill ruled that Lord Goddard had not made it clear to the jury that the prosecution was required to have proved Bentley had known that Craig was armed. He further ruled that Lord Goddard had failed to raise the question of Bentley's withdrawal from their joint enterprise. This would require the prosecution to prove the absence of any attempt by Bentley to signal to Craig that he wanted Craig to surrender his weapons to the police. Lord Bingham ruled that Bentley's trial had been unfair because the judge had misdirected the jury and, in his summing-up, had put unfair pressure on the jury to convict. It is possible that Lord Goddard may have been under pressure while summing up since much of the evidence was not directly relevant to Bentley's defence. Lord Bingham did not rule that Bentley was innocent, merely that there had been defects in the trial process. If Bentley had been alive in July 1998 or convicted of the offence, it would have been possible for him to face a retrial.

 

Source: Derek Bentley case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited February 7, 2012 by aerospacemango

[Theblacksheep]

Ahhhh...The old "Let Him Ave It" argument! This is, as I explained in my earlier post, a miscarriage of justice.

 

Still got a full pardon despite not being innocent!

 

The law is a 'ass'.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Theblacksheep

[aerospacemango]

Still got a full pardon despite not being innocent!

 

The law is a 'ass'.

 

But he was pardoned because of a miscarriage of justice....in that the original Judge failed to direct the jury properly! Thus, he was neither innocent, nor guilty! As the last line says "If Bentley had been alive in July 1998 or convicted of the offence, it would have been possible for him to face a retrial."

 

This is NOT the same as being convicted of a crime where the law is subsequently repealed, as in Turing's case!

 

And, YES! We finally agree on something....the Law IS an 'ass'!!

[Theblacksheep]

And, YES! We finally agree on something....the Law IS an 'ass'!!

 

[GrumbleDook]

All 306 WW1 soldiers shot for cowardice, regardless of evidence, medical reason or other factors have been pardoned.

 

Pardoned: the 306 soldiers shot at dawn for 'cowardice' - Telegraph

 

As the commentary and quotes in the article mention, the evidence simply was not there to verify and assess all cases so an act was amended to change laws affecting military law, under which the original sentences were carried out. The original refusal was based on advice given to the then Defence Secretary about how the existing civil law could be retrospectively applied to historic military law and rulings ... and it could not in these circumstances (there are other circumstances where it can apply such as looting, disobeying orders, refusal to follow orders ...) and this is why an amendment was needed. This is one of the examples I gave above actually ... this is not an example of where civil law has been changed or where a pardon has been given for something which is still shown to be a sound conviction under the civil laws as they applied at the time. Flaming stupid laws ... but still that was they way things were ... and thank $deity was are not there still in this country.

[witch]

but if they overturned this they'll soon be up to their necks in petitions for eveyone who was convicted of being a witch etc.

 

:eek2:

[PICNIC]

^^ She turned me into a newt!!!

[Jawloms]

:eek2:

 

Just goes to show how times have changed. You're not being prosecuted are you? Would have been a while ago!

 

^^ She turned me into a newt!!!

 

Did you get better?

[witch]

Not prosecuted, no

Just persecuted for my pagan, vegetarian and computer-geek beliefs....

[6Foot2]

Link: Government 'committed' to Alan Turing gay pardon law - BBC News

 

Proposals to introduce new legislation which would pardon gay men convicted under historical gross indecency laws will be brought forward "in due course", the government has said.

 

The so-called Alan Turing law could see thousands of men pardoned for crimes of which they would be innocent today...