Opensource Educational Software

[robputt]

Hi All,

 

I am new around here and I am not directly related to educational IT, although I do work as a Software Engineer for a large cloud provider. Recently my daughter started school which introduced me to the joys of ParentMail, 2Simple and other educational software products for engaging with parents. My natural curiosity made me want to research these further and quite frankly my chin hit the floor after visiting the ParentMail website, which is what leads me here today. I am all for decent educational software although the associated price tag made me gag, for a small school £600 (plus additional fees for SMS credits and training) an annum is a lot of cash for what is in reality a very small part of what a school needs to operate, obviously being in the industry I realise that sending a thousand emails in a bulk fashion literally costs pence and the database and Web UI to support this is minimal in terms of development, even when taking into account compliance and other such requirements.

 

Anyway this led me to research OpenSource educational software alternatives, and I was shocked to find there isn't really that much out there which is focused around the UK's education system. Does anyone else have any insight into what the current state of UK OpenSource Educational Software is? And would there be a demand for this sort of thing? The way I see it is a little more complex than simply writing some code here... As far as I can see it we need an Open group which comprises of techs and teachers to design and develop the software and relevant documentation, which would then be made Opensource. Although of course this isn't enough for many schools as setting up and running the software in a compliant fashion could be a problem. This is where a non-profit SaaS provider would need to be formed to offer the software to smaller / less experienced schools as a service on a not for profit model.

 

Please could you let me know your thoughts and opinions. I would be keen to get a small remote workgroup setup to start discussing this in further depth if it is something everyone is interested in.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

[danbuntu]

I would be interested in join this group.

 

However it's very easy to argue that the £600 price tag is well spent. Think of the price of a technician needed to support this product. They will possible need some open source skills: linux, git, coding, webserve etc.

Versus install it on a windows server and pick up the phone to their support if there are any problems. I've seen these again and again. I've pushed hard to use free products and told no.

 

In my experience many techs in schools and college don't have FLOSS skills. They are microsoft / cisco certified and don't really want to touch FLOSS.

 

There are also products like:

 

Open Source Student Information System | Home

 

Which is an open source MIS. However from talking to people over the years it appears it doesn't fit the very specific needs of UK schools and Colleges.

 

 

Dan

[robputt]

Hi Dan,

 

Thanks for your reply. I understand exactly what you are saying... and I also read about OpenSIS and realized it has next to no use in the UK as it doesn't fit around our requirements.

 

I totally get the concern about installing and supporting such software, hence the not for profit SaaS model being suggested. I think with an OpenSource MIS designed for the UK and a not for profit SaaS model hosting it on behalf of schools in compliant UK datacentres (maybe G-Cloud) we could probably offer MIS including capabilities such as those in parent communication tools and safeguarding databases for as little as £0.50 to £0.75 per student per year. Compared to using something like Capita SIMS with ParentMail and MyConcern this offers a considerable saving.

 

I believe that offering the Opensource software for free to use on-site for FLOSS savvy network managers such as yourself and also a hosted SaaS solution for those less experienced at a cost price is the way forward. Ultimately I want to offer the best value for public spending we can here rather than private companies creaming the education system.

 

Would you be open for me putting your name down as a potential for the working group? Maybe I could ask eduGeek if we can have a subforum for this purpose.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

[danbuntu]

Yes I'm happy to being on a working group.

[robputt]

Ok,

 

So I have been formulating my idea a little more and I have come up with the idea of "OpenPIMS (Open Pupil Information System)" we can change the name if you like but it is just a start for the project... Anyway the idea is to have all the usual goodness like other MIS systems, student database, school day planning, attendance & attainment recording, behavior monitoring, SEN requirements, safe gaurding event log and so on. Although I wanted to make the product to feel more like 2016 rather than 1992, a more familiar interface for teachers. For example how about simply adding notes throughout the day and tagging students in a method such as tagging seen in social networks (obviously all data would remain internal and secured) which adds events and notes to a students "learning timeline" similar to a Facebook wall with the history of the student. A very novel and familiar view for staff rather than multi page records and complex work flows seen in other software.

 

Is this something that staff and schools would be interested in, and if so would you say this begins to tackle some of the usability issues cited with currently available commercial MIS systems?

 

As always I am still looking for people to join the working group and shape the direction and requirements for the project.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

[Markopolo]

Ok,

 

So I have been formulating my idea a little more and I have come up with the idea of "OpenPIMS (Open Pupil Information System)" we can change the name if you like but it is just a start for the project... Anyway the idea is to have all the usual goodness like other MIS systems, student database, school day planning, attendance & attainment recording, behavior monitoring, SEN requirements, safe gaurding event log and so on. Although I wanted to make the product to feel more like 2016 rather than 1992, a more familiar interface for teachers. For example how about simply adding notes throughout the day and tagging students in a method such as tagging seen in social networks (obviously all data would remain internal and secured) which adds events and notes to a students "learning timeline" similar to a Facebook wall with the history of the student. A very novel and familiar view for staff rather than multi page records and complex work flows seen in other software.

 

Is this something that staff and schools would be interested in, and if so would you say this begins to tackle some of the usability issues cited with currently available commercial MIS systems?

 

As always I am still looking for people to join the working group and shape the direction and requirements for the project.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

I'd be interested in joining - PM me and we will have a chat.

[mikeprice]

It sounds like a great idea but I think you will come across huge resistance to moving - lots of schools - especially those under an LEA - are used to SIMS and moving will scare the wotsit off the SMT

 

and there will always be the attitude that if it costs nothing it is worth nothing - which is why they like shiny Apple stuff

 

Still - if you get enough to move if could be wonderful!!

[pcstru]

I totally get the concern about installing and supporting such software, hence the not for profit SaaS model being suggested. I think with an OpenSource MIS designed for the UK

One big bar to an Open Source MIS is the commitment required to provide statutory functions like the Schools Census (varies from locale to locale), CTF etc. This isn't just a one off production but requires substantial resources year on year as changes are driven by DfE (or other bodies in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales). All these require domain knowledge in depth (time consuming to acquire) but at the same time they are somewhat unsexy and unappealing for developers.

 

Also, from a schools perspective, the MIS is (and services around it are) critical to the school. When looking for an MIS, good quality support and continuity are extremely important. With Open Source, good quality support can be readily available when products are mature, early on the quality of the support might be good but it won't scale and continuity is quite risky as developers grow bored and move onto more interesting things.

[mikeprice]

In other words - it may be Open Source - but it will still need paid support in order to keep up with moving goalposts etc

 

and a guarantee of ongoing support - that must be completed on time

 

which sounds like a commercial system rather than classic Open Source

[zag]

Just seen this topic, I'm a big believer in open-source stuff and try to use it(or code it) where ever possible.

 

We use GIMP here instead of Photoshop, and Blender for 3D, audacity for audio, coffee for ICT ticket system, notepad++ for coding. The list goes on...

 

An openMIS is something that would be very welcome, I even started a thread on it once

 

I don't buy the argument that we need paid support for things. If software is written well enough, it should just work.

[robputt]

Good evening,

 

Sorry for the really long delay in getting back to you all...

 

Today I took a plunge into the world of making this stuff a reality, I've decided we should probably put a MIS on the back burner for a while, but I started up a Github group and started putting together some stuff for a ParentMail clone...

 

https://github.com/British-Open-Educational-Software-Group

 

If you want to see the code so far checkout the dev branch. (Yep I know the functionality is uber simple at the moment but lets keep it small and grow it iteratively) https://github.com/British-Open-Educational-Software-Group/OpenSchoolMail/tree/dev - I have started writing some docs as well, once I get the UI started I'll host a demo environment so everyone can play with it.

 

I also propose we have a bi-weekly / monthly meeting so we can get input / discuss with contributors etc... What do you think? What sort of day / time suits you todo this?

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

Edited March 4, 2017 by robputt

[dhicks]

once I get the UI started I'll host a demo environment so everyone can play with it.

 

I can recommend PythonAnywhere as a hosting environment for general Python-based projects, especially Flask-based ones - it takes about 5 minutes to get your code up and running.

 

I'm not quite sure exactly what you aims are, but attempting to write an all-in-one monolithic reaplcement-for-SIMS is not going to work. I think a SaaS provider with a UK schools focus is an excellent idea, although I'm not quite sure what advantage making it a not-for-profit would give it - I figure aiming to undercut existing suppliers and reduce the cost to schools of providing services they need, along with providing good customer support and development of new features, should still leave plenty of scope for making a profit.

[zag]

Good evening,

 

Sorry for the really long delay in getting back to you all...

 

Today I took a plunge into the world of making this stuff a reality, I've decided we should probably put a MIS on the back burner for a while, but I started up a Github group and started putting together some stuff for a ParentMail clone...

 

https://github.com/British-Open-Educational-Software-Group

 

If you want to see the code so far checkout the dev branch. (Yep I know the functionality is uber simple at the moment but lets keep it small and grow it iteratively) https://github.com/British-Open-Educational-Software-Group/OpenSchoolMail/tree/dev - I have started writing some docs as well, once I get the UI started I'll host a demo environment so everyone can play with it.

 

I also propose we have a bi-weekly / monthly meeting so we can get input / discuss with contributors etc... What do you think? What sort of day / time suits you todo this?

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

 

Very cool, starred!

 

I really do need to learn python instead of PHP one day, looks great.

Edited March 5, 2017 by zag

[robputt]

Hi dhicks,

 

Thanks for the feedback, as per my previous post we are not aiming for a SIMS replacement yet, MIS is put to one side whilst we mobilise on a Parent Teacher communication tool similar to the likes of ParentMail... I decided a smaller project is probably better whilst we get a working group in place. The whole idea is to provide OpenSource software which is 100% free and allows others to contribute freely to the project, in this case if the school has an experienced network admin they can easily deploy their own instance on a server in their server cupboard, or for schools which are not so well equipped or want less hassle a not for profit hosting option.

 

I am largely against making any profit from schools, I am a firm believer the money can be better used for other tangible resources, specially if tax payers money is involved.

 

As for using PythonAnywhere I will probably not use it, for the demo I'll probably throw it up on a simple lightweight cloud server at Rackspace or DigitalOcean or somewhere similar, but for the live production not for profit environment I would suggest using an ISO270001 certified datacentre in the UK, after all lists of parents emails, students and schools is obviously data which needs careful custody and deserves a certified secure environment.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

[robputt]

Hi Zag,

 

Thanks for starring the repo.

 

Would you be interested in joining the working group? Don't worry if you don't know Python we need a whole lot more than programmers... So far I need contribution from the following:

 

- Doc writers

- People with expert knowledge about education systems

- Individuals to feed user stories for future enhancements

- Testers

- Web designers - we need a website set up for the working group

- Pen testers

- and many more :-).

 

Of course being an OpenSource project all of this is 100% voluntary at the moment.

 

Long term I expect we will probably need paid employees such as system administrators if the not for profit hosting takes off... The aim here would be to offer good support and availability whilst ensuring the price is not elevated beyond what it needs to be to deliver the service.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

[dhicks]

MIS is put to one side whilst we mobilise on a Parent Teacher communication tool similar to the likes of ParentMail...

 

You'll need to be able to get the data you need from existing sources, i.e. existing MIS systems. You'll need to be able to get data securly from schools systems to your system with some kind of tool. Do you have particular plans for this?

 

As for using PythonAnywhere I will probably not use it, for the demo I'll probably throw it up on a simple lightweight cloud server at Rackspace or DigitalOcean or somewhere similar, but for the live production not for profit environment I would suggest using an ISO270001 certified datacentre in the UK, after all lists of parents emails, students and schools is obviously data which needs careful custody and deserves a certified secure environment.

 

If it's any help, I have an account with Positive Internet (UK-based) that you're welcome to use as a test or deployment server.

[robputt]

Hi David,

 

 

As of yet I do not have a plan to extract data from school systems into some extensible portable format. However I do expect at some point we will need an extraction tool for SIMS atleast. I think it's fair to say that we will not be using a waterfall approach in achieving these projects, but rather an iterative approach. For the first release of the project I plan on having the following...

 

 

a) A web based UI for registering students, contacts (parents / gaurdians), staff, groups of students and allowing staff to send emails to the contacts for a group of students

 

b) The database structure to support the above.

 

c) A method of bulk mailing (probably a queue based SMTP server and pluggable options for Mailgun and Amazon SES).

 

d) Documentation for deployment and management

 

 

I understand that these are very simplistic goals, and in no way make a usable system in terms of day to day usage for schools, but for iteration one it'll start to give a flavour and a base for what we'd like to acheive. Functionality such as MIS import tooling, SMS notifications, and so on will be iteratively added in subsequent releases.

 

 

Your offer of a test / dev server is very kind however I currently work for a large cloud provider and I have an allocation for doing these sorts projects as part of my philantrophic efforts as supported by my employer, as a result of working in this space I have small amounts of compute resource for such projects which the company do not mind me using. However long term I would expect to deploy the hosted version to somewhere like Datacentred or UKCloud who are already well known in the GCloud hosting space and hence have the levels of security certification I'd like for hosting such a service. So, thanks for the offer and certainately when the time comes if you'd like to use your Positive Internet server resources for helping us test the project that would be really cool. However for demo installations etc... we pretty much have it covered for now

 

 

 

The main thing I am reaching out for here is domain knowledge for the educational software area. If you have knowledge about systems such as SIMS it would be great to have you onboard to head up a project creating a general data export tool for SIMS (Opensource of course) which we can share with IT Network Admins and also use within our projects for data import / export. If you'd like to join the working group let me know and I'll PM you details about how to sign up to the mailing list etc...

 

 

Best Regards,

 

 

Rob

Edited March 5, 2017 by robputt

[MrKJLS]

Hi dhicks,

 

Thanks for the feedback, as per my previous post we are not aiming for a SIMS replacement yet, MIS is put to one side whilst we mobilise on a Parent Teacher communication tool similar to the likes of ParentMail... I decided a smaller project is probably better whilst we get a working group in place. The whole idea is to provide OpenSource software which is 100% free and allows others to contribute freely to the project, in this case if the school has an experienced network admin they can easily deploy their own instance on a server in their server cupboard, or for schools which are not so well equipped or want less hassle a not for profit hosting option.

 

I am largely against making any profit from schools, I am a firm believer the money can be better used for other tangible resources, specially if tax payers money is involved.

 

As for using PythonAnywhere I will probably not use it, for the demo I'll probably throw it up on a simple lightweight cloud server at Rackspace or DigitalOcean or somewhere similar, but for the live production not for profit environment I would suggest using an ISO270001 certified datacentre in the UK, after all lists of parents emails, students and schools is obviously data which needs careful custody and deserves a certified secure environment.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rob

DigitalOcean has a UK based data center and is ISO27001 accredited.

 

https://www.digitalocean.com/help/policy/

[dhicks]

As of yet I do not have a plan to extract data from school systems into some extensible portable format. However I do expect at some point we will need an extraction tool for SIMS atleast.

 

I don't have recent experience with SIMS as my current school uses a different system, however SIMS doesn't seem to have changed much over the years.

 

In the UK, SalamanderSoft provide tools for extraction of data from MIS systems and for syncing that data with other systems. In the US, Clever.com seem to be aiming to own the market in applications that utilise school's data - it might be an idea to check out those two companies approach.

 

A web based UI for registering students, contacts (parents / gaurdians), staff, groups of students and allowing staff to send emails to the contacts for a group of students

 

You'll need to keep the database backend (the bit where you can enter details) separate from the emailing functionality. Very few schools are going to want to switch over MIS, they'll want to use their existing MIS and data, but you might get some schools start to try out your tool if they can hook their existing system up easily.

 

If you have knowledge about systems such as SIMS it would be great to have you onboard to head up a project creating a general data export tool for SIMS (Opensource of course) which we can share with IT Network Admins and also use within our projects for data import / export. If you'd like to join the working group let me know and I'll PM you details about how to sign up to the mailing list etc...

 

I just did a quick search for "dhicks sims", which yielded 80 results - it would seem we first had similar discussions almost exacly a decade ago:

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/6076-programatic-data-extraction-sims-net-data-base.html

 

Yes, do please PM me with details about your mailing list.

[zag]

For the extraction from sims, as a start a CSV export will be enough. That should be easy enough to parse and import data.

@robputt I'm happy to help in any way, I also have similar views on Opensource and creating programs for schools to use.

[LukeRowberry]

The link with SIMS is a massive problem you're going to face. The messaging services are predominantly used to report pupil absence etc so an up-to-date link with SIMS is vital to know attendance data.

[zag]

The link with SIMS is a massive problem you're going to face. The messaging services are predominantly used to report pupil absence etc so an up-to-date link with SIMS is vital to know attendance data.

 

1 step at a time though, we certainly do not use it predominantly for that purpose in our school.

 

Our main use is to mail parents once a week.

[dhicks]

The link with SIMS is a massive problem you're going to face.

 

It's not a massive problem, it's a case of running a SIMS report on a regular basis and sending the data somewhere in a secure and auditable fashion. Might I suggest that Clever.com's CSV specification as a good place to start:

 

http://assets.clever.com/documents/clever-sftp.pdf

 

If nothing else, we'll wind up with a data link from SIMS to Clever.com and be ahead of the game for when they get round to operating in the UK. The original poster definatly has a point about making something UK-centric - the specification above has references to zip codes and US-style addresses, which are going to need to be cludged a bit to fit UK-style addresses and postcodes.

 

SalamanderSoft suggest a CSV file containing at least Class Name,Teacher ID,Pupil ID for their system, which the above would seem to cover quite well.

 

The above does not cover daily attendance data, but adding another CSV file to cover that should be do-able. Should we aim for around an hourly update time, do you think?

[danbuntu]

I'm not familiar with sims. But would all the data that would be needed to extract be in the same place from school to school?

If so it's just a case of writing a databridge that can pull data from Sims into the new system.

Similar scripts could then be produced for each other system as needed.

 

Assuming this is the case the next step would be to get the SQL together to extract and load this information.

[pcstru]

Assuming this is the case the next step would be to get the SQL together to extract and load this information.

Access vi SQL will not be available on some systems. Best bet (for wide MIS compatibility) is to try to get the reporting facilities to produce appropriately populated CSV files. The initial work would then be to define what those files and what they contain.