BSF - The Quetions

[GrumbleDook]

@Grommit

Do us a favour and change your location in your profile then ... it gets confusing if you say 'Scotland' and you are actually working in England.

[kingswood]

because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

 

Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

 

You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

 

Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

 

Russell

 

 

Sorry Russel.. I am not in Scotland but in England working in a Pathfinder School in the West of England...

 

My jaw dropped a few years ago when the BSF consultants came in and said that the ICT department would be Service Managed, all staff would be TUPED or retrenched and that the school had no say in it..

 

Thats why I am so vocal.. because I have been there and understand what in means to see all that you have worked for get flushed away and know that you have no future because some low paid drone in RM will be the one working on your server and the rest of the school servers in the county...

 

and if you want to work in te school you have grown to love with the staff that you have bonded with over the past 8 years you have to become a low paid techie drone..

 

 

Yea I have an agenda.... and thats to get the ICT managers of England mobilised to save their jobs..

 

Russel.. what is you role now ? and please can you tell us how you propose to keep your job when the BSF rolls in..

 

because as I know the Prefered Bidder in Leicestershire pulled out and they had to get a new supplier... but that will still not stop the BSF from taking over the ICT

 

I think you have a healthy view of what BSF means Grommit. It's a complete shambles to be honest. It has been in the news (making the BBC web pages) and the ICT support component isn't up to scratch at all. Being a Senior Systems Manager in a school that is having a new build shortly, and having to project manage the ICT infrastructure and support framework for that new build, I can tell you that the Head's initial idea was to go managed services. It's compelling for Head Teachers. He asked me whether I would be with him on it and I told him I wouldn't become a toner replacement engineer for [insert company here]. I would leave before then if that were to happen.

 

Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation. There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!

 

Yeah. Like it is for lots of us now really. So no real change in other words. But outsourcing ICT totally only sounds like a good idea to those in a position of safety. Or with vested interests and connections to the companies involved in the thing.

 

Good luck in fighting your corner.

[beeswax]

"There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!"

 

40 minutes! I wish our head of ICT was so obliging. some good points there though

[russdev]

Right maybe I should clarify things as was in bad mood lat night.

 

I don't support bsf I think it is wrong way to go.

 

With that said I don't think blaming companies going for bsf tenders the baddies as if likes of rm and others didn't go for it someone else would.

 

Grommit you can make rm the person to blame for bsf all you like but in my view the people to blame are pfi/goverment for making the ict side to restrictive.

 

I also think the only low-wage tech discussion is good but as been said before ways around this.

 

Remember that details in some ways is down to lea who decide contract.

 

My biggest issue with you grommit is one you want to make companies look bad for going with bsf tenders this helps no one maybe think about working with them to make sure the low paid senero doesn't happen.

 

Edugeek doesn't work with likes of rm or other bsf tenders for sake of it.

 

Also the fact you post about how bsf going to get rid of your jobs but don't give advice on how to safe guard it and there are many ways of doing that.

 

You seem to think if we all upraised tomorrow bsf would be stopped I can tell you now every techie could go on strike on Monday over bsf and it would make no difference at all as you are dealing with politics.

 

 

Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation. There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!

 

Ironey of that is non-bsf solution that rm use for managed service is like that It is only the fact that RM have to conform bsf structure in bsf tenders I suspect.

 

 

Russ

[CyberNerd]

You seem to think if we all upraised tomorrow bsf would be stopped I can tell you now every techie could go on strike on Monday over bsf and it would make no difference at all as you are dealing with politics.

 

you said that about compulsory KS3 ICT testing and becasue RM made such a mess of that it was made optional.

[GrumbleDook]

The biggest problem with the KS3 testing is that it wasn't managed by Software Engineers ... it was managed by politicians and qangos.

 

I support teh idea behind the use of the KS3 test as a method of formative assessment throughout KS3, but there are commercial models already in place for doing that ... and that was its downfall.

 

It was never going to work whilst it was treated like a typical exam, and it was not (and is not) allowed to seriously compete with commercial products like GOAL.

 

The reason it was pulled had bugger all to do with how good or effective it was going to be but because of politics ... and it is a shame that something that could have been (if managed properly) extremely useful is now regarded as a complete failure. If nothing else we should be glad that the format of it tried to be as application neutral as possible. Schools had to start teaching concepts rather than applications.

 

The number of companies that wanted to get involved with these tests that have breathed a sigh of relief because they have realised that even if they had gotten the contract it would have been a balls up.

[russdev]

As said Tony said had nothing to do with us that I afraid and don't think it has gone away but any means it hasn't.

 

Russ

[tosca925]

What about non ICT roles, ie: we have a tech who just deals with AV. Such as all the IWB and projector problems as well as making sure staff have all the media equipment, cameras,camcorders etc are ready for when class and departments need them. I know this might sound a lot for one member of staff full time....but we have 56 IWB and projectors, 5 mobile projectors (that staff book for certain lesson where there are no IWB ie mobile classrooms) we have several media studies courses running as well has the P.E dept using specialist software such as Dartfish which they need camcorders and cameras set up for the lessons.

 

Does this role come under the BSF roles or will this sort of work still need to be done by a employee of the school ?

[Ric_]

...

Does this role come under the BSF roles or will this sort of work still need to be done by a employee of the school ?

 

If this does require the school to employ somebody, they won't be allowed to touch the hardware anyway as that might effect any warranties, etc.

[Grommit]

 

Being a Senior Systems Manager in a school that is having a new build shortly, and having to project manage the ICT infrastructure and support framework for that new build, I can tell you that the Head's initial idea was to go managed services. It's compelling for Head Teachers. He asked me whether I would be with him on it and I told him I wouldn't become a toner replacement engineer for [insert company here]. I would leave before then if that were to happen.

 

Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation.

 

.

 

This is very intresting as it is written in the BSF Rules that if you want the BSF funding you have to be fully manage.. how did you get around this to the "hybrid" system...

 

Do you still have the same role of running the Network ?

[GrumbleDook]

The rebuild at Kingswood is not exactly BSF. BSF does not come into our area for a bit (we got knocked back 2 years ago) but Paul's schools is getting a rebuild courtesy of the LA and Central Govt (jammy git) as it is actually 2 school sites that are now being used by a single school (with a dirty great big field in between which must be lovely to walk across in the grotty winter months!)

 

The other schools in the town include a CTC that is becoming an academy, so it already has a relatively new build but is still going to have a bit more done to it. There is also a school that has been made up of 2 failing schools, then became a community college and is now being rebuilt as an Academy, run by the CTC. Again ... lots of money spent but not under BSF.

 

Finally ... we have the most succesful out of the proper schools (forget the CTC ... they also take from the next town along and also have a different selection / admission process) ... an aging early 60s building for the main block, with cheap additions over the last 25 years. What has this school managed to get? 1 block being rebuilt from 1 floor to 3 floors (LA funding) and an extension over the staffroom and kitchens (another 2 floors funded by the LSC).

 

So when BSF comes into our area we are likely to get ignored and pushed to the bottom of the pile in the county, but the other schools will have had rebuilds but my school won't.

 

Also note that all 3 schools (consider the CTC and the new academy to be a sinlge entity!) are likely to be using different companies for a large number of things they do with regards to ICT, but all still manage it in -house ... and actually do it to very similar regimes.

 

BSF will have no hold in Corby for secondary schools for political, financial and educational reasons.

 

I wouldn't mind but my school needs the new buildings. I'm just glad our staff, students and parents are understanding about the limitations we have.

[kingswood]

 

Being a Senior Systems Manager in a school that is having a new build shortly, and having to project manage the ICT infrastructure and support framework for that new build, I can tell you that the Head's initial idea was to go managed services. It's compelling for Head Teachers. He asked me whether I would be with him on it and I told him I wouldn't become a toner replacement engineer for [insert company here]. I would leave before then if that were to happen.

 

Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation.

 

.

 

This is very intresting as it is written in the BSF Rules that if you want the BSF funding you have to be fully manage.. how did you get around this to the "hybrid" system...

 

Do you still have the same role of running the Network ?

 

As Tony clarified- and I should have made clearer- we aren't BSF at all. The Head doesn't like the idea of BSF period. And it does seem as Tony also stated that BSF will pass Corby by some. Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to say was that BSF shouldn't have to mean passing ICT support to some mega corp or bug company that simply will not deliver the goods in as flexible a format as you get when working with a local skilled ICT support team.

 

BSf isn't all bad though and I can see the compelling nature of having millions dangled in front of you, in a hypnotic trance-like way, if only you will let all your base belong to us!

 

Paul

[kingswood]

The rebuild at Kingswood is not exactly BSF. BSF does not come into our area for a bit (we got knocked back 2 years ago) but Paul's schools is getting a rebuild courtesy of the LA and Central Govt (jammy git) as it is actually 2 school sites that are now being used by a single school (with a dirty great big field in between which must be lovely to walk across in the grotty winter months!)

 

That dirty big field (with attached mole hills a-plenty) will be getting a dirty big school plonked right on it some time soon.

 

You are right though, it is a real bugger in the winter....

[broc]

Partnership for Schools must be under considerable political pressure right now; many (most?) BSF projects are delayed, very few have delivered anything tangible yet. HM Govt are becoming impatient, and we will have a new leader soon wishing to make their mark. I believe that the over-rigid application of their 'rules' is a major factor in the delays, although Partnership for Schools recently tried to shift blame onto the LAs for not having enough resource/skills to handle projects of this size.

 

I would not be surprised if more LAs manage to 'break free' from the model being sought by P4S and hopefully more hybrid solutions will emerge where LAs form partnerships with suppliers in the supply chain but fall short of handing over full control to external companies. If schools work with the LAs, they can set some pretty stiff targets for service providers to achieve, this might put a few off from bidding too, especially if this involves future-proofing, changing needs of the curriculum etc. Outsourcing companies don't like unknowns & too much flexibility, bad for profits!

[Face-Man]

tosca925 wrote:

What about non ICT roles, ie: we have a tech who just deals with AV. Such as all the IWB and projector problems as well as making sure staff have all the media equipment, cameras,camcorders etc are ready for when class and departments need them

 

It all depends on the contract. It's my understanding that a local authority can choose to include in the LEP anybody who core job involves them using a computer for more than 50% of the time. So they could include data managers, office staff etc I don't think that any have gone that far yet but somebody is bond to at some point..

 

Russ who are you interviewing for your podcaste ?

 

I know Northgate ( responsible for Northern ireland ) is looking to get every authority in London and already has exclusive rights with fronter

http://www.northgate-is.com/press_centre/item.php?item_id=759

 

I also know that RM are not bidding for authorities that they don't already have a significant presence in as they realise that they will not be able to manage all the work that will be created

 

I would ask them how they plan to include innovation ? or cope if they just win a few small authorities ? Do they see an education system where 3/4 companies do all the ICT managed services in england ? What will they do to support the little companies who drive forward new ideas and products ?

 

Away from my own situation my biggest worry is that we end up with a dominant player like Tesco in the food market who can decide what schools need/want and dictate terms becuase nobody else can take over.

[Geoff]

Away from my own situation my biggest worry is that we end up with a dominant player like Tesco in the food market who can decide what schools need/want and dictate terms becuase nobody else can take over.

 

You mean a monoculture? Don't we already have that anyway due to the preponderance of Microsoft based software systems?

[Face-Man]

Yes but they don't pay my wages !!! or supply my hardware and google will over come them sooooooooooooon "the king is dead long live web 2.0"

[russdev]

Russ who are you interviewing for your podcaste ?

 

 

While won't mention names yet until we have firm list.

 

but we have one major bsf bidder on board whose idea it was in first place and is willing to get some of the other tender companies on board.

 

Then there is second one who has has said in principle idea is good and needs to get approval before saying yes.

 

Then possible yes for others the iist will grow with help from first company.

 

Russ

[webman]

Do you actually believe they will be giving us the truth or just what we want to hear to get us on their side?

[Grommit]

I know Northgate ( responsible for Northern ireland ) is looking to get every authority in London and already has exclusive rights with fronter

http://www.northgate-is.com/press_centre/item.php?item_id=759

 

I believe that Fronter are going into London by themselves with a Partner of the LGFL.. there is no Northgate involved.. just a couple of Norwiegens and the LGFL

 

 

Away from my own situation my biggest worry is that we end up with a dominant player like Tesco in the food market who can decide what schools need/want and dictate terms becuase nobody else can take over.

.

 

This is what I was having a discussion with someone yesterday about RM becoming like Tesco..

 

They are getting so big and undercutting everybody just to get the contracts that soon there will be no-one left to compete with them and kill the small businesses........

[GrumbleDook]

Do you actually believe they will be giving us the truth or just what we want to hear to get us on their side?

 

This is one of the issues with interviewing people. You can have the Jeremy Paxman style which is all antagonism, you can have the Parky style that draws out anecdotes and hidden secrets or you can have the Jimmy Young style and try and get balanced arguements based on fact.

 

Each is fantastic to watch or listen, but each gets different types of information depending on the interviewee.

 

From the question s that have been put forward so far I can pretty much say that I don't think any company trying to answer them would be able to put a positive spin on everything.

 

The fact that some companies actually *want* to talk to people is a starting point. We have been asking for information for some time and there is the chance that we can get it now ... and the cynics amongst us can always view it as ammunition about why the way *we* setup *our* network is actually best for the school ... at least that is what *I* have previously done ;-) (even if it did get ignored by the Head at the school I was at ... and once we were proved right and a different company came in he used our arguements to say 'thanks but no thanks', and fair play to him that he did.)

[webman]

Ok, couple of more questions, don't think someone else has asked but apologies if you have (it's a long thread now).

 

Would there still be varying levels of technical support personnel - eg. network manager, senior technician? Or would all existing staff (regardless of current role) be given 'technician' status and all have the same responsibilities?

 

Also, how much control would onsite technical support have over the school network? For example, would we still be responsible for reinstalling/imaging workstations, managing accounts, setting up servers, managing backups? Or would we be simply there to reset password and changer printer toners as and when, with little or no access to the servers and network equipment?

[broc]

Interesting article in the Observer last Sunday

 

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2078236,00.html#article_continue

 

Might be a few questions arising from this?

[Grommit]

Interesting article in the Observer last Sunday

 

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2078236,00.html#article_continue

 

Might be a few questions arising from this?

 

Maybe someone should write to him [email protected] regarding the killing off of School ICT Managers and the Tescoing of the Schools ICT to massive companies.. thus wiping out smaller companies and the independence of the schools..

 

Should be a good stoory.. I have heard Head after Head say they want to keep their Managers but can't because they will lose the BSF funding..