johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 A third party company who I won't name but for the sake of this thread we will call them Wireless Installs Ltd provided a school a wireless solution. 3 Quotes were provided. A meru, a Cisco and a Netgear solution. The Netgear solution was the cheapest and the school were promised a working wireless solution so they went for it (after consulting with the governors). Wireless Installs Ltd installed the Netgear wireless solution, this consisted of: 7x WNDAP350 all wired back to 1 x GS724TP, with a single WMS5316 connected. The problems were obvious straight away: Problem 1) We noticed 5% loss of packets even when only one device (netbook) was connected. This problem exists across all wireless devices, I tried various laptops & netbooks. Problem 2) The wireless solution wont allow devices to connect/reconnect until after an X amount of time after boot up, usually ~40 seconds. This meant that the devices received "unable to connect to the domain" when trying to log in. We dropped a device off the domain and it was evident that the wireless point was not allowing the device to reconnect. Again I ran these tests on various different wireless devices. To prove that it was the wireless solution at fault we connected a single Cisco WAP and disconnected the Netgear solution. Everything worked 100% perfect, no packet loss (maybe 1 packet in 1000). We monitored everything and created a nice graph showing that the Netgear solution wasn't performing as expected. I then took this evidence to Wireless Installs Ltd and asked them to resolve these issues. Wireless installs Ltd updated the firmware in the WAPs but this didn't make any difference. They acknowledge there is a fault but contest my claim that the solution isn't fit for purpose. Is it possible the wireless solution is fit for purpose and I'm being too demanding as a customer? Anyone any experience of dealing with a similar problem? I'm not biased to any company/brand/supplier of Wireless. I am a third party trying to resolve this because the school have no skill/experience. Should I step back? Should I invoice the school for my time or the company that provided the Wireless? Thanks everyone.. Sorry for the long thread!
kmount Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Plain and simple the solution isn't working and is therefore in it's current capacity unfit for purpose. During the project sign off was testing completed etc to show it all working? Did anyone sign off on this? It depends what capacity you've been brought in as but if you are a technical consultant working with the school on increasing their IT capability then you should in conjunction with them ask Wireless Installs Ltd to come to site and see the solution not working and ask them why. If they acknowledge the fault they should be fixing it as you paid them for the kit not Netgear, not anyone else. If still no joy money back and try again elsewhere. (Net Ctrl & CP Ltd forum sponsors on here are known solid providers of this stuff) As for your invoicing I'd still invoice the school because you're not directly Wireless Installs Ltd customer but the school could argue that due to Wireless Installs Ltd's inability to effectively troubleshoot the solution they have had to bring in an external consultant to work with them which has naturally cost them money. As for whether they get any back from them for that I don't know though. 2
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Few things to try first Do a traceroute back to your server, check where it drops, because it may not be the APs but the switch? I have seen that a few times in my time! Have you run InSSIDer to check the strength of the APs and made sure there is no crossover on the channels? How long have you had the issue and did it work with any demo kit? (did you even get demo kit?)
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 My role is as an ICT consultant however I work for the company that provides the school with Technical suport. Initially the technical configuration of all of the devices in the school was questioned by Wireless Installs Ltd and the school so that is where I came into play. So far I have invested about 20 hours into this to: a) Prove where the fault originated from b) Provide a working solution to show that wireless does work c) Dispute the "fit for purpose"-ness with Wireless Installs Ltd d) Provide evidence of the fault occurring.
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Would you mind posting up an "edited" version of your report thus far so we can go through and see where you may have missed anything?
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 I don't have the evidence to hand. The most obvious evidence was a graph of ping responses showing the time outs, I can probably dig it out if you *really* need it.
kmount Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Open and shut case then really, the report goes to the school who sends it to Wireless Installs Ltd for them to come in and disprove their install is at fault but if they have admitted fault it's pretty much open and shut.
kmount Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 I don't have the evidence to hand. The most obvious evidence was a graph of ping responses showing the time outs, I can probably dig it out if you *really* need it. One would assume connecting a device hard wired into the switch the APs go back to shows no packet loss to the rest of the school? With that in mind, a different AP connected into this switch then is used to show no packet loss either? And an AP of theirs connected to the switch does? Simples.
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 ok, well I have sent you a PM, be sure to read it. I also had a thought about the installation, was it substandard (wiring I mean), how far apart are the APs from the switch, because if it is more than 100m from the switch you will have issues on a big scale. The longer the cable, the more the signal degradation.
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 Gah I thought I replied to this already... a) Traceroute is fine when using cisco point (point plugged into same location as where Netgear WAP was) b) I personally haven't however my employee has. Network Installs Ltd did admit to not scanning the building first, after we discovered the fault they ran a wireless scan and tried to blame a rogue wireless access point in a neighbours house transmitting at a high power output. My colleagues did the maths on the strength of the signal being output and came to the conclusion their monitoring tool must have been inferior as it would of taken several kw of energy to output such a large signal (however I don't have the evidence with me to back this up. c) The install was completed in Summer and 2 weeks later when we tried to join devices we noticed the fault. This was instantly raised with Network Installs Ltd. The school were promised a working solution by Friday the 21st of Jan. No demo kit was provided.
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 Wiring looks fine. All wiring is fine w/ cisco WAP. Small school, APs are in range of POE injection and Cisco switch performs fine in all locations.
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 are the APs running POE??? because to my knowledge the GS724T doesnt support it (I gave my one to Dos_box so I am now unable to test that theory but I could never get it working!)
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 Okay I have invited the MD of Network Installs Ltd to read this thread and check to make sure everything I have posted is factual. It is worth saying the Network Installs Ltd have been happy to come out to look at this problem and aren't putting their head in the sand so there is no complaints, negativity or resentment. All parties involved want to isolate this problem to something simple so we can get the wireless working in the school and move on to something less frustrating
kmount Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Hopefully together you will resolve the issue regardless of where it lies.
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Shame you are in bradford, I would love to take a proper look! Just one last question, why was no demo done?? The company that did the install should have done a demo to see how much coverage an AP would get, and to see how the signal ratios are!
johnymac Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 Shame you are in bradford, I would love to take a proper look! Just one last question, why was no demo done?? The company that did the install should have done a demo to see how much coverage an AP would get, and to see how the signal ratios are! I guess only the company that supplied the wireless can answer this. I will ask however I don't think it was a requirement placed by the school.
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 that is so ridiculous, why would no school insist on a demo? Sorry just seems like common sense to ask for one. Please ask for us!
edutech4schools Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Problem 2) The wireless solution wont allow devices to connect/reconnect until after an X amount of time after boot up, usually ~40 seconds. This is normally fixed with a gpo 'Group Policy Login Delay Untill Computer Policy is Applied' and is common with wireless setups as the wireless drivers dont get applied soon enough for the policy to run and everything gets delayed.
edutech4schools Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 oh and this Computer configuration | Administrative templates | System | Logon | always wait for the network at computer start-up and logon setting 1
featured_spectre Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 edutech4schools, the packetloss issue is nothing to do with that, however you do make a good point!
EduTech Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) If the links back are fine, then i can only imagine it being some form of configuration error. without looking at the config i doubt it would be easy to point out what we could change (i don't have a NetGear AP to look at to be honest to even have a look what kind of configuration you could do on such AP). If the APs have been upgraded to the latest version of the firmware, then at least you can rule that out as being a problem without any issues. If you logon to the managed switch what does that give you back in regards to information? is there anything you can do in regards to configuring the ports that the AP's are plugged into? if so how has that been setup? Just thinking out loud at the moment as i don't have anything to look at, it would be handy to see how the management (WMS5316) has been configured.. Even thought it is a NetGear solution, with it being Modern Kit i doubt you would be having these kind of issues so it's got to be setup wrong in some kind of way but be handy to have a look at the config/managment. Some wireless network cards (generally the software) does not allow the wireless settings to be remembered. Are you using the built in Windows Wireless Network Configurator to connect or/ are you using the software for the Wireless NIC? (Intel ProWireless) < if they are using Intel ProWireless cards for example there are settings within that software you need to configure to allow the Wireless to be connect before LOGON. With regards to the packet loss, if you PING one of the AP's without anything connected to it do you get any packet loss? and if you connect a device to an AP do you get any packet loss from the AP? or/ do you only get packet loss if you ping the Device connected to the AP. James. Edited January 22, 2011 by EduTech
m25man Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 7x WNDAP350 all wired back to 1 x GS724TP, with a single WMS5316 connected.[/Quote] And how exactly does this array attach to the rest of the network? This sounds like a configuration issue. I would look closely at the uplinks to the netgear switch & array especially if connected back to a Cisco, also any trunked links into the Netgear will cause severe packet losses unless configured correctly.
maestromasada Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 just for curiosity, have you got any vlans configured??
TechSupp Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 This is normally fixed with a gpo 'Group Policy Login Delay Untill Computer Policy is Applied' and is common with wireless setups as the wireless drivers dont get applied soon enough for the policy to run and everything gets delayed. This might solve some of our issues, (and the next tip you gave :-) ), but where is the setting in GPO to set the first one?
edutech4schools Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 This might solve some of our issues, (and the next tip you gave :-) ), but where is the setting in GPO to set the first one? Sorry I copied pasted wrong info. just go with the second post for the moment (always wait for the network at computer start-up and logon setting) and ill try and dig out correct info for first post.
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