BSF - Email from Steve Moss

[Guest richard]

I still stand by the idea that by taking on different roles you stand a better chance of staying at your school and having a chance to keep out of the company ... and this is an idea that has been mentioned by a number of govt agencies now ...

 

To be honest if I wanted to become I something different in a school I would have done the appropriate training. As is it as the moment in the junior school I work for I am expected to run clubs every lunch time that I'm (ie get the troublemakers dumped on me intead of causing grief else where) , run a club one night after school. Take a group of kids so their teacher can have their PPA time and also act as TA.

 

I came into education as I believed that my technical skills would help enhance the kids education by providing them with a modern, reliable ICT infrasturcture that would be used by the staff to bring the kids learning to life. I am now beginning to realise that this is not the case now.

[bossman]

I do not use a managed service as i have no ties with RM no SLA with either them or LEA i just use the product which i have found invaluable. you do not have to tie yourself in with RM just cos you use their network management overlay. I can use whatever equipment i like and tailor it to our needs.

 

In the end we all have to rely on some corporation or other i.e. Microsoft - Vanilla - RM etc

[webman]

I still stand by the idea that by taking on different roles you stand a better chance of staying at your school and having a chance to keep out of the company ... and this is an idea that has been mentioned by a number of govt agencies now ...

 

But it's not all about staying at the school - it's about doing what we do best and putting our skills to best use - technical support and network management. If we wanted to be teaching assistants we'd train and then apply to be one.

[Grommit]

....

[bossman]

Sorry folks got called away so last post was late in getting there :oops:

Richard: you are soooo right in what you say, why is it that a teacher can do just what they trained for and that is teach and yet we have to be masters of all trades and conceptions where is the logic in that. The logic being is that we do not belong to a 99.9% union membership and that is our demise.

[GrumbleDook]

Ok ... can people tell me what they would do if they were working for a regional office of a large conglemerate in the chemicals industry where each office had there own way of working based on what they did, and so the support team (employed directly at the office) fitted around them ... and then the IT gets outsourced.

 

I know part of this is about protecting jobs and part is about protecting the schools, including the staff and students inside of them ... and it is hard to seperate those facts (which is what unions try and do most of the time).

 

If your job was being outsourced if you worked in 'industry' what would you do?

[webman]

Hopefully the strong union we were all a member of would listen to its members, negotiate with the companies in our favour and call a strike if necessary to resolve the situation.

 

The things is, a lot of schools, staff and students are fine the way things are now. IT works, the teachers teach and the students learn. If it aint broke don't fix it. But where it is "broke" - the LEA should step in and make sure the school gets the best out of in-house support.

 

Schools ICT can manage just fine without managed services.

[Guest richard]

Ok ... can people tell me what they would do if they were working for a regional office of a large conglemerate in the chemicals industry where each office had there own way of working based on what they did, and so the support team (employed directly at the office) fitted around them ... and then the IT gets outsourced.

 

I know part of this is about protecting jobs and part is about protecting the schools, including the staff and students inside of them ... and it is hard to seperate those facts (which is what unions try and do most of the time).

 

If your job was being outsourced if you worked in 'industry' what would you do?

 

To be honest from what I know of outsourcing from friends of mine who been through it for those people who have been taken on by the new provider it was a rather rough time with the majority of those either finding new jobs or being made redundant within a year.

[alexknight]

One of my ideas would be.... If the school wants to keep in-house the County could employ a couple of Uber Geek Consultants that will go from school to school consulting with the Network Managers making sure Best Practice" is being used and advising on Disaster Recovery, Backups, Apple etc.... as well as advising on innovations in the Education ICT field..

 

Plus the Network Manager would have a Highly Skilled ICT Consultant who he could bounce ideas off of and maybe improve his or her skills

 

Sounds pefectly reasonable to me!

 

 

If your job was being outsourced if you worked in 'industry' what would you do?

 

On the money they pay me this would not be an option, remember, outside industry is profit led, getting someone in with a higher wage bill would be frowned upon, unless!!!!!! you live in an area, say wales and get an enormous government grant to do it???

 

What would the taxpayer say if the government swapped 'X' employee at £17,000 a year for 'Y' employee at £30,000, got less for their money and could get the same or better level of service by keeping 'X' employee by just giving them the support, encouragement and recognition that they deserve??

Oh, to answer the question........Go on strike :twisted:

[broc]

If Partnership for Schools could demonstrate a valid, viable business case which proved that they could help an LA and its schools through BSF and IT managed services to deliver a more cost effective service and maintain or raise standards I don't think any of us would have a leg to stand on.

 

However, in every case I have been involved in involving outsourcing, the client has been the one making the decision, initially deciding they want to explore managed services with some objective in mind; it may be to cut costs, consolidate or centralise, but they would have a reason for doing it.

 

They would then draw up a set of requirements, invite suppliers to tender, and choose a suitable supplier. If none met the requirement/cost, they would re-examine the business case & requirements and either give up or re-tender.

 

Now with BSF, we are being told; you have to play by our rules or we will take our ball (ICT funding) away.

 

The rules of the game are : We (the schools) must have a managed service; we must agree to pay for it, even though we don't yet know what 'it' is. If we are already operating above the minimum level of service on offer, we must accept a degradation in service level, OR pay more. We must be prepared to TUPE our staff to a third party, we must conform to the 'standard' or be prepared to pay a heavy price for being 'individual' in our approach to delivery of ICT in our environment & with our curriculum.

 

Does anybody spot the difference?

[Grommit]

Oh God we are all Doomed!

[webman]

My thoughts exactly.

[bossman]

Absolutely on the button Broc.

[Grommit]

My thoughts exactly.

 

The problem is that there is No place for ICT or Network Managers in the BSF and BECTA vision..

 

and I doubt the Managers will be TUPED accross as we are not low paid technicians that the Managed Service Company would went.

[webman]

Do they even have a concept of a network manager? Doesn't everyone in this role just come under the "technician" umbrella?

[Grommit]

Do they even have a concept of a network manager? Doesn't everyone in this role just come under the "technician" umbrella?

 

I was told by my County that I need to" Re-Position Myself" in some other role as there was no future in my present one.

[webman]

Aahh. They'll probably have you babysitting and/or teaching kids then

[klawd]

I have been following this topic with both horror and interest......

 

The reports I have read so far have demonstrated BSF (or renamed PFI as it really is..) to be a failiure. The reports stated there to already be a lack of funding in the initial stages, causing delays of several years in implementation. I believe there was also a TV documentary on this a while ago, I forgot the name of it, but its findings showed the the same problems.

 

Could it be the case, as with many other government initiatives, that this dies a death when the bills start to come in and the government cannot continue funding. Think of how many other initiatives have come and gone. Look at the recent KS3 ICT testing debacle.

 

It seems to me that there are huge hurdles for the government already to implementing BSF. Including:

 

- Funding, it is easy to quote huge figures of investment, but how sustainable is it and where is it coming from?

 

- The LA, local authorities in many areas have a vested interest in keeping ICT away from the private sector, and it seems they have managed to do this very successfully so far.

 

- Headteachers, from the experience I have seen, a very powerful force. There are many schools that have partnerships and working groups to promote their views, and in our county this has been very succsessful at changing initatives or blocking them altogether.

 

- The government themselves: The next government may decide that BSF is a disaster and stop it in its tracks.

 

If this does hit our school (and we are not yet convinced that it will..) We have already discussed the situation and would opt out of the funding.

 

When you look at the small print, the funding really isnt that massive (based on the fact it seems to be a loan), the money will be managed by the private company (so your £250 workstation, will be billed as £600) etc etc.

[GrumbleDook]

You have a very brave head if your school has already decided to opt out.

 

The initiative itself will continue in one form or another ... even if the tories came to power tomorrow it would continue ... the funding has been around for some time in one form or another and will continue to be around for some time ... there are also too many phases either allocated or in place for it to be a nice withdrawl ... it will likely be just rebranded and have a few things changed about the conditions

 

Heads have a lot of power ... but they need to be kept informed ... and it takes a brave head to ignore politics too.

 

If you have evidence of the proposals that are to be put in place in your area they would be very much appreciated.

[webman]

Only in 10 years time will they realise that BSF was a big mistake; and it to join the likes of the KS3 tests, ID card scheme, NHS NPfIT, other government IT systems (tax credits etc) - the list goes on.

[alexknight]

The list does go on and on......

 

CSA, Air Traffic Control, Immigration Control etc etc.

 

It seems that sometimes it is change for change sakes and most of the time it has to be a radical change and not a evolutionary change.

 

Any more additions to the initiatives and failures of this present governnment??

 

Or we could add the successes such as the speed camera stealth tax, now that IS a success.

 

Alex

[broc]

We have discussed the possibility of opting out at the school were I chair the governing body. The HT quite rightly says that the parents of the children at school are not going to understand or accept the idea that the school is turning down a £1m+ investment at their school because 'we' don't like the strings that are attached to it; all the parents want is a bright new shiny school, full of bright new shiny equipment because that will make it a 'better' school for their children to learn in.

 

This is a hard argument to counter for any school.

[broc]

... even if the tories came to power tomorrow it would continue ...

 

It certainly would. Without making too much of a political point here, 'New Labour' have embraced many of the old traditional Tories policies such as privatisation and I would expect there to be renewed enthusiasm for transferring more school services to the private sector if the Tories come to power at the next election.

 

ICT managed services in schools may be the thin end of the wedge. There is already talk about 'facilities management' of whole school sites, including evening & weekend use. Many schools today earn a useful income from letting the school buildings and facilites for community use. This income might vanish into the coffers of the FM company, particularly with PFI schools.

[bossman]

GrumbleDook: you seem pretty pro bsf and i wonder if you yourself have some vested interest, perhaps some political agenda maybe? you seem to be very well informed.

 

Headteachers are always well informed and it doesn't have to be about the political agenda as with most politics it usually screws up the very foundations of our society with their ever increasing invasion into our lives. I know changes have to be made but i feel strongly that it is always the political agenda that takes presidence and not the real issue and that is the people who care and matter.

[alexknight]

all the parents want is a bright new shiny school, full of bright new shiny equipment because that will make it a 'better' school for their children to learn in.

 

This is a hard argument to counter for any school.

 

Personally and as a taxpayer I am in favour of investment into childrens education. So yes shiney new things are seen as a positive thing. BUT, what we are talking about here is, in my opnion, an expensive and convoluted way of producing excellent ICT 'support' services. That is to say that the same goal could be achived without any major changes.

 

i.e spend the money on new equipment, training and support for the existing and well able IT support staff and introcuce a system where LA's can monitor and record the level of support provided.

 

Everyone would be happy.