Retirement Age being scrapped

[teejay]

So, the government is scrapping the ability for employers to retire people at 65, see BBC News - Fixed retirement age to be axed.

This won't affect your state pension rights, well until they stick that up as well, but means an employer can't make you retire.

What annoys me with this is we have massive unemployment in the under 25's who are at the start of their working life. If more people are going to carry on working beyond their retirement age, then it means even fewer jobs for young people. The upshot of this is the young people will be in an even worse state with their pensions as the sooner you start paying into a pension the better the return, which is in the long term going to create an even bigger problem.

Also, I would much rather our young people were given the opportunities and the self confidence being employed brings, rather than getting demoralised and depressed by being unemployed.

[Disease]

Well if the previous government were not so fixated with sending everyone to uni and invested more in vocational training then there would not be so many young people on the Rock'n'roll with a useless degree's.

[broc]

So you would rather see older people demoralised & depressed by being unemployed? Employment law says it is illegal to discriminate by age.....

[torledo]

That could ease the strain on public finances as more people continue to pay tax, while at the same time claiming the state pension.

 

but what if they work in the public sector... does drawing a wage from the public purse plus drawing a state pension still ease the strain on public finances ?

[teejay]

So you would rather see older people demoralised & depressed by being unemployed? Employment law says it is illegal to discriminate by age.....

 

There is a limited pool of jobs, unless things change dramatically in the future, there really aren't enough jobs for everyone, especially if we increase the pool of people wanting jobs by removing the retirement age.

So, it's a tough choice:

a) get young people into employment

b) allow older people to choose their retirement age rather than having it forced on them by legislation

 

At the older end, they have had the benefit of a working life and may well find the transition to retirement difficult, but there are other options open to them as they have a pension, so voluntary work etc is a possibility.

At the younger end, they have JSA which makes it difficult to do voluntary work, plus what a start to your adult life applying for hundreds of jobs and getting constant rejection.

 

Oh and just to add, I'm nearer retirement age than I am the start of my career! Personally, I wouldn't continue working beyond the retirement age, simply because I feel it is unfair on those starting out.

Edited July 29, 2010 by teejay

[broc]

Removing the mandatory retirement age allows people to continue working if they wish, it remains to be seen if the empoyers will accept this. Employers will have to balance the cost of employing older more experienced people vs younger people with less experience. There are many factors such as work ethic, loyalty, generally having to pay higher labour rates for experience, employee sickness & absenteeism levels, not to mention the ability to perform the tasks where it may be physically demanding.....

 

The real goal for Govt & employers should be to create jobs for all who need them regardless of age, gender, or any of the many other factors that often discriminate.....

 

Of course many older people may need to carry on working as they cannot afford to retire because their private pension has been eroded and the state pension has failed to keep pace with earnings over the years....

[Disease]

There is a limited pool of jobs, unless things change dramatically in the future, there really aren't enough jobs for everyone, especially if we increase the pool of people wanting jobs by removing the retirement age.

 

There is not a limited pool of jobs there are loads of jobs available to those who want work. The limiting factor is that while older people are more willing to do any job most young people are not willing to work unless it's for 5 hours or less a day, with 100 days holiday a year and £50 per hour.

[teejay]

There is not a limited pool of jobs there are loads of jobs available to those who want work. The limiting factor is that while older people are more willing to do any job most young people are not willing to work unless it's for 5 hours or less a day, with 100 days holiday a year and £50 per hour.

 

There are what, just short of 3 million on JSA, several million about to be forced off disability allowance and told to look for work. Current job vacancies are around 1 million, so yes there is a limited pool of jobs.

The assumption that everyone unemployed is lazy and doesn't want to work is complete rubbish.

[Guest Guest]

There is not a limited pool of jobs there are loads of jobs available to those who want work. The limiting factor is that while older people are more willing to do any job most young people are not willing to work unless it's for 5 hours or less a day, with 100 days holiday a year and £50 per hour.

 

Evidence? No, didn't think so

 

 

Funny think is we had 2 kitchen fitters in last week. One old bloke close to retirement who sat there doing nothing for several days, one young chap who grafted his ass off the entuire time.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Guest

[djm968]

Maybe the Government will launch a campaign to promote this similar to Under 21 campaign.

 

If you look under. 21 please do not be offended if we ask you for proof of age when you buy alcohol.

 

If you look over sixty five, please do not be offended if we ask you if you want to continue working!

 

Best person for the job is the only criteria I consider when interviewing people.

[localzuk]

There is not a limited pool of jobs there are loads of jobs available to those who want work. The limiting factor is that while older people are more willing to do any job most young people are not willing to work unless it's for 5 hours or less a day, with 100 days holiday a year and £50 per hour.

 

Oh come now, you do realise how silly that sounds?! There is a limited pool of jobs - we wouldn't have any unemployment if there wasn't!

 

Older people more willing to do any job? Nonsense. With age usually comes experience, and as such most older people expect to be well paid and won't go and do any old job. Go into any restaurant - who are the waitresses? Young people or old? Bin men? Young or old?

[tmcd35]

but what if they work in the public sector... does drawing a wage from the public purse plus drawing a state pension still ease the strain on public finances ?

 

A good argument for means testing the state pension me thinks.

 

In general I agree with this move. It should be up to the individual to choose when they wish to retire and not the state/company to push them out the door and on to the scrape heap because they have reached a predetermined age that lets face is actually quiet young now given modern life expectancies.

 

Also, given modern life expectancies I don't think it's that outragous that the state pension age is put up either. I think men and women should have the same state pension age and that is probably around 70 years. That and means testing will save the country a few £££'s towards the old deficit and do so in a much farer way than raising VAT. (IMHO )

[broc]

Much is made of the greater life expectancy, especially by well-heeled politicians, many of whom have never done a hard days work in their life.

 

A lot of people, especially manual workers working in harsh physically demanding environments may not have the strength & stamina to continue working until they are 70...

 

Also, there is a quality of life dimension to longetivity... medical science & health education means that many medical conditions that were killers are no longer so; but often people's lives are preserved but at the expense of their quality of life.

 

Are older workers entitled to time spent in retirement while they still have some quality of life and are able to enjoy their retirement? Manipulating the pension system & forcing people to work longer could be at the expense of their quality of life in retirement. Do you spend your early retirement years in good health but skint, or do you work until you drop? That is the dilemma facing many older people today.....

[Disease]

Evidence? No, didn't think so

 

 

Funny think is we had 2 kitchen fitters in last week. One old bloke close to retirement who sat there doing nothing for several days, one young chap who grafted his ass off the entuire time.

 

I can give you just as many examples where the reverse is true.

 

The unemployment rate for the three months to May 2010 was 7.8 per cent, down 0.1 on the quarter. The number of unemployed people fell by 34,000 over the quarter to reach 2.47 million. The number of people unemployed for up to six months fell by 54,000, to reach 1.16 million. However, the number of people unemployed for more than twelve months increased by 61,000 over the quarter to reach 787,000, the highest figure since the three months to March 1997.

 

The number of people claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (the claimant count) fell by 20,800 between May and June 2010 to reach 1.46 million. The number of claimants fell in all regions except the North East and Northern Ireland where small increases were recorded

 

The number of vacancies for the three months to June 2010 was 486,000, up 10,000 over the quarter. The sector showing the largest quarterly increase was wholesaling, retailing and motor vehicle repairs, where the number of vacancies increased by 11,000 on the quarter to reach 95,000.

Source. NAtional Statistics Office which showed that unemployment was down and vacancies are up. You are assuming that Millions will be kicked off of incapacity.

 

I know loads of young people who would not consider working at ASDA or Tesco stacking shelves and rather stay on the dole. I also know a load of people who should be kicked off of incapacity benefit and told to look for work. If I had my way they would get no financial support at all.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Disease

[jamesb]

I can give you just as many examples where the reverse is true.

 

Which doesn't mean accusing all youth of being lazy because they don't have jobs is in any way accurate, considered or fair. In fact it stinks of ageism.

 

Source. NAtional Statistics Office which showed that unemployment was down and vacancies are up. You are assuming that Millions will be kicked off of incapacity.

2.47 million people unemployed and seeking work in the quarter mentioned.

2.07 million people considered inactive.

0.49 million vacancies.

 

Inactivity is not the same thing as unemployment - inactive refers to people who are of working age, but not employed for various reasons which are considered justified.

 

I know loads of young people who would not consider working at ASDA or Tesco stacking shelves and rather stay on the dole. I also know a load of people who should be kicked off of incapacity benefit and told to look for work. If I had my way they would get no financial support at all.

Which does not mean that all young people fall into this class. On top of which there's the consideration that some of these people would potentially be getting less money overall in return for their work. There are people who do cheat the system, but saying:

 

The limiting factor is that while older people are more willing to do any job most young people are not willing to work unless it's for 5 hours or less a day, with 100 days holiday a year and £50 per hour.

Displays a willing ignorance of the subject and prejudice against young people. Edited July 29, 2010 by jamesb

[localzuk]

I can give you just as many examples where the reverse is true.

 

 

Source. NAtional Statistics Office which showed that unemployment was down and vacancies are up. You are assuming that Millions will be kicked off of incapacity.

 

I know loads of young people who would not consider working at ASDA or Tesco stacking shelves and rather stay on the dole. I also know a load of people who should be kicked off of incapacity benefit and told to look for work. If I had my way they would get no financial support at all.

 

I'm sorry but your own source shows there aren't enough jobs to go around!! 2.47million people unemployed, 486k job openings!! What point are you trying to make?!

[Disease]

 

Which does not mean that all young people fall into this class. On top of which there's the consideration that some of these people would potentially be getting less money overall in return for their work. There are people who do cheat the system, but saying:

 

Displays a willing ignorance of the subject and prejudice against young people.

 

You will find that the word I used is 'most' not all and most can mean anything from 50.0000001% upwards, nowhere did I say all as you are implying so please check your facts.

 

So why in your enlightened opinion do you think there was a sharp rise in youth (under 25) employment under the previous government? Could it be because they encouraged more people to go to uni for worthless degree's that have no functional use in the job market.

[localzuk]

You will find that the word I used is 'most' not all and most can mean anything from 50.0000001% upwards, nowhere did I say all as you are implying so please check your facts.

 

Please check your 'facts' too... You're basing your entire opinion on hearsay and anecdotes. Show me evidence. Facts, as you say, rather than random numbers and things made up on the spot. Your entire argument is based upon a platform of ageism to be honest.

 

So why in your enlightened opinion do you think there was a sharp rise in youth (under 25) employment under the previous government? Could it be because they encouraged more people to go to uni for worthless degree's that have no functional use in the job market.

 

1. Recession.

2. More people in university education

3. Less jobs to go around

[Disease]

I'm sorry but your own source shows there aren't enough jobs to go around!! 2.47million people unemployed, 486k job openings!! What point are you trying to make?!

 

Thats the available jobs in 3 months, obviously a large amount of those should get filled and a similar amount would be generated in the next quarter. You would need to analyse the amount of long term unemployed rather than the total figure which would include those who maybe unemployed for 3 weeks and now back in employment. You would find that long term unemployed is around half of the 2.4 mill and I can bet you that te majority of those would be people who do not want to work around 1 million say.

[Disease]

Funny that you accuse me of ageism when the entire premise of the OP is based on ageism.

[jamesb]

You will find that the word I used is 'most' not all and most can mean anything from 50.0000001% upwards, nowhere did I say all as you are implying so please check your facts.

 

No, you are implying, or even stating, that most (i.e. over half as you so sharply point out) young people are simply lazy. I dispute that statement - based on the fact that 'most' young people are in employment of some kind. You make no point about it being purely the unemployed who are lazy, and even if you were I would want to see your references for over half of unemployed young people (not inactive) being willingly so.

 

So why in your enlightened opinion do you think there was a sharp rise in youth (under 25) employment under the previous government? Could it be because they encouraged more people to go to uni for worthless degree's that have no functional use in the job market.

 

Mixture of things - partly the fact that many did go to university, and coming out were unable to find jobs in their chosen field. Given the student loan it is even easier to fall into the benefits trap, since yet more of your income is taken from you. Not only that, but having chosen to study for several years someone is at a disadvantage over those who have been gaining employment experience.

 

So yes, the push to get everyone into university was a mistake, but blaming the people who were pushed into this decision by the expectations placed on them is entirely missing the point.

[localzuk]

I can bet you that te majority of those would be people who do not want to work around 1 million say.

 

Will you please stop with your 'betting' and other conjecture. Show me facts! Your comments about long term unemployment are irrelevant - if there are 2.47mill unemployed, that means that there are 2.47mill people unemployed. Without 2.47million jobs for them to go into, there aren't enough jobs.

 

Funny that you accuse me of ageism when the entire premise of the OP is based on ageism.

 

I haven't given an opinion on the OP. Every post of yours in this has pretty much attacked young people. I am a young person, and a recent poll on this site gives the impression that the majority of the people working in our line of work are also young people. What is it about young people that you dislike so much that you feel that they should be attacked in the way you are doing?

 

Ageism is bad, be it against the young or the old. However, a mandatory retirement age is not about ageism - it is about managing the economy and keeping employment stable. We don't allow under 16s to work in the same way as we do over 16s, so would that be ageism? Or would it be there to protect those children?

[Disease]

Will you please stop with your 'betting' and other conjecture. Show me facts! Your comments about long term unemployment are irrelevant - if there are 2.47mill unemployed, that means that there are 2.47mill people unemployed. Without 2.47million jobs for them to go into, there aren't enough jobs.

 

 

 

I haven't given an opinion on the OP. Every post of yours in this has pretty much attacked young people. I am a young person, and a recent poll on this site gives the impression that the majority of the people working in our line of work are also young people. What is it about young people that you dislike so much that you feel that they should be attacked in the way you are doing?

 

Ageism is bad, be it against the young or the old. However, a mandatory retirement age is not about ageism - it is about managing the economy and keeping employment stable. We don't allow under 16s to work in the same way as we do over 16s, so would that be ageism? Or would it be there to protect those children?

 

You keep asking for facts yet I have also noticed that you have failed to provide any hard evidence to counter my claims. In the same way as you say I cannot just post with as you put it 'betting and conjecture' you can not counter my claims with more of the same. You are assuming that the 2.47 million unemployed all want to work which you can be totally assured is not true.

 

You say what is it about young people you do not like when you do not know how old I am.

 

I will tell you what I don't like about people, I don't like the fact that people moan about not getting a job yet when you offer them a job at McDonalds they say I am not working there, a job is a job and in my experience there are plenty of them. There is no excuse for being unemployed.

[e_g_r]

Didn't Logans run have the ultimate solution to this

[localzuk]

You keep asking for facts yet I have also noticed that you have failed to provide any hard evidence to counter my claims. In the same way as you say I cannot just post with as you put it 'betting and conjecture' you can not counter my claims with more of the same. You are assuming that the 2.47 million unemployed all want to work which you can be totally assured is not true.

 

The onus of proof is on you to prove your statements, not for me to disprove them. Otherwise, I can say 'I think there is a secret race of people that live on a planet 2 trillion light years from here' - I must be right if you can't prove me wrong... My base is one of not knowing either way. I make no claims about the laziness of our unemployed population, you are the one doing that.

 

You say what is it about young people you do not like when you do not know how old I am.

 

What has your age got to do with anything? Young people can dislike other young people, old people can dislike their own age bracket also...

 

I will tell you what I don't like about people, I don't like the fact that people moan about not getting a job yet when you offer them a job at McDonalds they say I am not working there, a job is a job and in my experience there are plenty of them. There is no excuse for being unemployed.

 

Your experience has been shown, in VERY simple figures to be nonsense though. Lets swap age with colour here - what if you were claiming that all coloured unemployed people were lazy? That would be racist, and I'm pretty sure that unless you could back it up with hard figures, you wouldn't go around saying it. So why do it with age?