Open Source Schools' Miles Berry offers a radical response to the ICT funding cuts

[Guest monkeyx]

OK, we've got as far as GConf replacing Group Policy - how close to Group Policy is it? Is it a good replacement? How granular is the control? Can I lock down the operating system as easily / well as Group Policy does?

 

Gconf is very granular, defaults are also set from /etc/defaults and Linus is generally more secure in that the root level access is needed to make any major changes. There is also a commercial product called likewise that integrates with AD.

 

The next thing to ask (or maybe should have considered this first as authentication happens before Group Policy) what replaces Active Directory? Again how good of a replacement is it?

 

LDAP works very well for AD and Linux also supports LDAP. In fact LDAP existed on Linux well before it did on AD Authentication can also be done via samba to integrate with AD. There is no need to replace if you integrate ?

 

Is there a WSUS equivalent?

 

Yes it is possible to install a local update repository for most Linux Distros. These updates can be fully automated.

 

Would we need anti-virus for the Linux machines?

 

I would say yes to this as if using Samba then you will have access to Windows systems. There are free and commercial AV systems for Linux

 

Are there systems like Policy Central / Securus available for Linux? Not necessariy free, because not all software needs to be free.

Yes there are several free ones that include commerical support ie puppet and cfengine

 

What's the replacement for RDP / Remote Help? VNC I suppose for RDP, but remote help? I know VNC can be used for remote help too, however I do not know if VNC can be made to ask the users permission before sharing the screen.

Yes

 

 

How are applications deployed in a centralised manner (GPO style, SMS, etc.)?

 

There are several systems for this. WPKG does this, although I have not used it. Puppet and cfengine can do this I think. It would be fairly trivial to script installing apps.

[somabc]

I agree wholeheartedly with MonkeyX's points. Linux works very well authenticating with LDAP through PAM. Puppet has a very good rep and is due to support windows soon as well.

 

Pluggable Authentication Modules - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LDAP/PAM - Debian Wiki

Edited July 21, 2010 by somabc

[localzuk]

Yes there are several free ones that include commerical support ie puppet and cfengine

 

There are several systems for this. WPKG does this, although I have not used it. Puppet and cfengine can do this I think. It would be fairly trivial to script installing apps.

 

Didn't know about those 2, much appreciated - i'll add them to my list of things to investigate for our slow but sure move to linux.

[teejay]

You do save about £12 per machine as you don't need the desktop windows license. (Using schools agreement prices).

 

Under Schools Agreement you have to count every desktop Pentium 3 upwards, no matter what operating system they are running or I believe even if they are just being used as terminals.

[Guest TheLibrarian]

 

Are there systems like Policy Central / Securus available for Linux? Not necessariy free, because not all software needs to be free.

Yes there are several free ones that include commerical support ie puppet and cfengine

 

Neither puppet or cfengine are replacements for Policy Central or Securus, these products monitor activity on the PC, watching for keywords etc. and when triggered will take a snapshot of the screen and post that screen and other relevant information on the Policy Central / Securus server.

 

They are used as part of the Every Child Matters framework - although how this is going to be effected by the change of government I have no idea.

 

Thanks for the other information though, if we can keep getting information like that, this thread could become useful instead of a huge (over done) debate about if it can be done.

 

I've put my troll back under the bridge....

[localzuk]

Under Schools Agreement you have to count every desktop Pentium 3 upwards, no matter what operating system they are running or I believe even if they are just being used as terminals.

 

Only if you're buying desktop licenses... If you don't buy any windows desktop licenses under Schools Agreement then you aren't stuck with that...

[teejay]

Only if you're buying desktop licenses... If you don't buy any windows desktop licenses under Schools Agreement then you aren't stuck with that...

 

Doh, yes, my bad.

 

One question, what do you use to centrally manage deployments of updates to Ubuntu desktops and deploy extra software? I know there is Landscape, but that's a chargeable product I believe, are there any free alternatives? Edit: ignore that, I just scrolled up!

[CyberNerd]

 

One question, what do you use to centrally manage deployments of updates to Ubuntu desktops and deploy extra software? I know there is Landscape, but that's a chargeable product I believe, are there any free alternatives? Edit: ignore that, I just scrolled up!

 

The simples thing in my mind would be a script to 'apt get install X' that could ssh into many computers at once. updates are usually automated anyway.

[CyberNerd]

OK, we've got as far as GConf replacing Group Policy - how close to Group Policy is it? Is it a good replacement? How granular is the control? Can I lock down the operating system as easily / well as Group Policy does?

I wanted to add my 2p to this

I don't think Gconf is a very good replacement for remote administration or group policies - more of default profiles I think. but with respect, you are thinking in terms of a windows admin, not a unix admin. Linuxes tend to need less in the way of locking down, a default user is already quite locked down in comparison to windows.

[dhicks]

The simples thing in my mind would be a script to 'apt get install X' that could ssh into many computers at once.

 

That's rather what I was thinking - it's sometimes difficult to get accross to people used to Windows machines that there's a simpler way to do software installs! I think that possibly Puppet is used for wide-scale automation of multiple machines, with scripting suport and so on, but would probably be overkill compared with a simple SSH.

 

--

David Hicks

[sted]

I wanted to add my 2p to this

I don't think Gconf is a very good replacement for remote administration or group policies - more of default profiles I think. but with respect, you are thinking in terms of a windows admin, not a unix admin. Linuxes tend to need less in the way of locking down, a default user is already quite locked down in comparison to windows.

 

i find its more like the tools for locking down win98 (the name of which escapes me than a replacement for gpos

[srochford]

Just kind of thinking aloud, but one trivial thing that might help is to set a cron job that runs daily and checks against a server to see what needs to be done.

 

If you schedule

wget  -qO- http://myserver.domain.name/thingstodo.sh | bash

to run on each machine at a particular time then you can put whatever's needed in that script on the central server. You could have the script running regularly and it could include logic that decides what/if it needs to do based on time, machine name, whatever.

 

(basically, what you're doing is fetching the text of the shell file from the server and piping it through bash - whatever it contains will be executed as if you'd type the commands locally)

[dhicks]

Just kind of thinking aloud, but one trivial thing that might help is to set a cron job that runs daily and checks against a server to see what needs to be done.

 

SSH from the main server to the other machines would be more secure - that HTTP request is unencrypted and unauthenticated, a user on your network could examine the script going past (so any passwords used to do anything would be visible) or simply spoof the IP address of your server and replace your script with whatever they like.

 

--

David Hicks

[somabc]

SSH from the main server to the other machines would be more secure - that HTTP request is unencrypted and unauthenticated, a user on your network could examine the script going past (so any passwords used to do anything would be visible) or simply spoof the IP address of your server and replace your script with whatever they like.

 

--

David Hicks

 

Well you could use https or any other network transfer protocol scp, smb, nfs? SCP would be good as it is encrypted and you will know if the key changes in the event of a man in the middle attack.

 

For Redhat / Fedora / CentOS there is spacewalk which is opensource and allows you to manage groups of machines.

 

http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/redhat-rhn-spacewalk-screenshot.png

 

Spacewalk: Free & Open Source Linux Systems Management

Edited July 22, 2010 by somabc

[GrumbleDook]

Love the idea of GConf, (but it is a bit WinSuite) ... just as I love Karoshi ...

 

But, can someone give me a detailed breakdown of how they would get FOSS at this level into a 90 pupil primary school and how it could be looked after with minimal support by the school (think about the local support folk in commercial companies or local schools not having *nix skills or knowledge)?

[tmcd35]

Love the idea of GConf, (but it is a bit WinSuite)

 

Eeeek! That's enough to put me off right there.

 

But, can someone give me a detailed breakdown of how they would get FOSS at this level into a 90 pupil primary school and how it could be looked after with minimal support by the school (think about the local support folk in commercial companies or local schools not having *nix skills or knowledge)?

 

Forget the primaries! It'd take me a fair few months of reskilling before I would be confident enough to even deploy a test network at that level. At this level Windows is well and truely cheaper. The cost of my time vs the cost of 6 copies of Windows Server DC and unlimited Windows servers? Besides what happens when I leave? Linux Sysadmins at that level don't exactly walk in off the street, even in this economic climit.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy the challenge of setting up and supporting it though

[GrumbleDook]

Eeeek! That's enough to put me off right there.

 

Forget the primaries! It'd take me a fair few months of reskilling before I would be confident enough to even deploy a test network at that level. At this level Windows is well and truly cheaper. The cost of my time vs the cost of 6 copies of Windows Server DC and unlimited Windows servers? Besides what happens when I leave? Linux Sysadmins at that level don't exactly walk in off the street, even in this economic climate.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy the challenge of setting up and supporting it though

 

And this is part of the problem.

 

I *want* to see more FOSS in education, but the way it is still sold is as a black art for some things (Desktop solutions, serious server work, etc) and it often means buying in the setup of it all ... at the same conslutants rates as RM / Apple / Windows specialists. The only thing they save is some licence costs ... and not everyone is on schools agreement so it is not the massive waste some would have you believe.

 

Until people are more accepting of it as a tool by experiencing it as a *choice* day in, day out, then it will be difficult to break that barrier.

 

You have various groups of people out on T'interweb talking about the end goal for technology ... and most will say it needs to be ubiquitous and just work. It can do ... but it means cutting corners on support, security, availability, usefulness or relevance. Forcing the matter due to lack of funds is just as bad as people saying "our wireless network doesn't work so we need to change the APs to a different make" without sitting down and thinking about whether they are in a building with a massive steel infrastructure, they are running 5 APs to connect 100 laptops and they are all operating on the same channel with no management.

 

Until people sit down and do a bit more planning then it is doomed to fail and be replaced as soon as there is some more money ... and it will just give FOSS a bad name, putting it back a few steps.

 

Hence ... my question about the 90 pupil primary school is a leading question ... and a measurable target for the FOSS community.

 

(Please note I am intentionally using FOSS and not OSS as some people are dropping back to saying OSS ... and we should not forget FREE software even if it isn't open source! Free software from Microsoft et al is still free software. Don't turn it into an anti-MS session please.)

[Guest monkeyx]

In terms of FOSS I have setup Google applications for my wifes primary school. It provides a free website, documents, shared storage and email and is VERY easy to use. I have also setup a charity sites using google apps (PLUG heelandtoe) and they are very happy with it as well.

 

In relation to OSS, Open Source Schools is pushing to make headway to provide turnkey solutions and full documentation for people looking to role out OSS in their school. See Open Source Schools for more information.

 

Not all OSS requires a degree in dark arts;) It does require an open mind and a willingness to try things for yourself rather let a third party demo things for you. ie GIMP and Audacity can be added to a wide variety of platforms for very little effort.

 

Many vendors turn up the FUD when taking about FOSS, many tried to diss Moodle when we looked at it, saying it required a MEGA buck sysadmin to look after it etc. They forgot to mention it was the biggest and most documented learning platform out there. LOL

 

People keep tying to make this debate a black and white issue, when in reality your 90 user primary school could be able to get 30 PC out of a storage room or from their secondary. Install a modern Linux distro (which is not hard) and have access to a great Office suite and web browser.

 

We rescued 120 PCs from PC heaven as school that got BSFed could not keep them and we are re using them with Linux for free

 

Tim

[MkII]

Puppet looks interesting : Puppet Labs: The Leading Open Source Data Center Automation Solution

As does Landscape : Systems management | Canonical

[CyberNerd]

And this is part of the problem.

 

Hence ... my question about the 90 pupil primary school is a leading question ... and a measurable target for the FOSS community.

 

It can't be that hard, major companies look after 1000's of linux systems without difficulty. In keeping with the 'radical response': just offer redundancy to council windows admins and then re-employ ones with the *nix skills. Or do linux admins really get paid more? I don't think so personally.

 

(Please note I am intentionally using FOSS and not OSS as some people are dropping back to saying OSS ... and we should not forget FREE software even if it isn't open source! Free software from Microsoft et al is still free software. Don't turn it into an anti-MS session please.)

 

It's not free if it's tied to a potentially expensive licensing upgrade plan, esp microsoft - only runs on version XP+1

Edited July 22, 2010 by CyberNerd

[PiqueABoo]

Until people sit down and do a bit more planning

 

I wish.. in both this and other circumstances.. but anyway since we mentioned "Primary" here's a quick step 1:

 

Stop the patronising guesses and figure out the real [bleeping] requirements: It may or may not get more flexible now but recently we've had that rather rigid national curriculum, several vendors claim this or that suite of s/w gives "curriculum coverage" (RM Windows Box being just one example), LA advisors in lots of places likely have their own lists of a basic set of s/w for that.

 

So FOSS-folk: Go figure out what those sets of apps are and do, why everyone seems to think they are needed, then put them in a simple spreadsheet or something and see how many equivalent OS apps you can line up alongside in the next column. And assuming you haven't given up then do some real numbers, with the time=money cost too.

 

[Don't forget to compare and contrast with some of the site-licence-for-everything-we-make for ~£1K deals Primaries have had in the last couple of years]

 

get 30 PC out of a storage room or from their secondary and have access to a great Office suite and web browser.

 

1) See above.

 

2) They have room to store 30 PCs somewhere - so why is the server overheating in a titchy stationary cupboard?

 

3) Secondary cast-offs.. nooooo... not that again....

 

4) I very definitely can't imagine a bunch of old boxes that probably only come with CRT if there's any kind of monitor as "supplementary" boxes where it doesn't kill a lesson when they break, and trust me I did once kick that limited purpose around very seriously indeed i.e. practical research into reusing old kit as net-booting *nix based web browsers with remote storage etc. Biggest obstacle: They usually only have the room (physical space, power & NIC cabling etc.) for one set of multi-purpose boxes that sometimes need to run some seriously demanding apps - h/w performance demanded by s/w is of course not proportional to the age it is aimed at.

Edited July 22, 2010 by PiqueABoo
C & C

[tmcd35]

It can't be that hard, major companies look after 1000's of linux systems without difficulty. In keeping with the 'radical response': just offer redundancy to council windows admins and then re-employ ones with the *nix skills. Or do linux admins really get paid more? I don't think so personally.

 

Erm, major companies take on ICT Graduates and provide them with in house training. Major companies will reguarly send their techs on relevant thrid party training courses - Red Hat, VMWare, Cisco, MS, etc - to make sure they are certified and qualified to maintain the companies infrastructure. At the end of the day big companies know that if they don't get this right then their network will fail it it will cost them serious money.

 

Schools on the other hand, I've not even been sent on a Pitmans Typing course (not that I need it) but I do have both a first aid and fire certificate

[mberry]

... figure out the real [bleeping] requirements: It may or may not get more flexible now but recently we've had that rather rigid national curriculum, several vendors claim this or that suite of s/w gives "curriculum coverage" (RM Windows Box being just one example), LA advisors in lots of places likely have their own lists of a basic set of s/w for that...

Actually, the primary national curriculum for ICT is not at all restrictive. The QCA 'optional' schemes of work, and perhaps local authority interpretations of it and them, were. Free Schools and Primary Academies won't have to follow the new curriculum, and all the other schools may be given the right to opt out too. That said, I did the mapping exercise against the (now seriously dated) QCA scheme of work a while ago, see: ICT Curriculum - Schoolforge-UK there were a few gaps at the time, many around the control/monitoring side of things - Arduino and Wedo/picoboard support in Scratch have this covered now.

 

Whilst it, understandably, caused some comment above in this community, my Point 9, "Use Volunteer Support", is I think relevant to the small primary context described. If the school doesn't happen to have a willing Linux guru amongst their parent body, an approach to the local Linux User Group is, in my experience, unlikely to fall on deaf ears. LTSP is /very/ low maintenance.

 

Some of the most exciting developments in supporting open source deployment at primary/elementary level have happened in developing countries, where tech support is perhaps even thinner on the ground than it will be here after the spending review: see, eg, the Shuttleworth supported TuxLabs project, Edubuntu, and OLPC.

Edited July 23, 2010 by mberry

[GrumbleDook]

@mberry

 

One of the problems with schools, and this is not solely aimed at ICT/Technology, is that given a choice between a paid technician to support things (even on a once a week/fortnight/month basis) and free, the school will always opt for the free option. So now you are telling schools to ditched qualified, experience technicians who understand education to go with a bunch of volunteers who are unlikely to be on call when the school needs them? Love the new tagline for Open Source ... 'Open Source will put hundreds of technicians out of a job'

 

Ok, in all seriousness ... asking yet another bunch of people into a school (and I hate to point it out, but some of these are evangelists that make mac fanbois look tame) to change stuff yet again ... how about planning things like when a school is looking to upgrade, etc then they should consider moving to FOSS so they do not incur cost. Ditching already paid for software, etc when it works perfectly well seems to be a waste of money to me.

[joe90bass]

how about planning things like when a school is looking to upgrade, etc then they should consider moving to FOSS so they do not incur cost. Ditching already paid for software, etc when it works perfectly well seems to be a waste of money to me.

 

I think this is a key point, unless you're paying out thousands annually and have trained staff then switching is going to cause more issues than it'll solve. I'm a windows tech (or rather NM!) through and through, but I am looking to Linux for new systems such as Koha on Debian (reminds me - must get our librarian to actually put the books onto it!) and now squid and Dansguardian on Ubuntu (if the server will let me - hardware issues!). But these are background projects, I couldn't risk switching a key server to Linux due to a lack of skills.

 

Our head of IT has given me a list of software for my tech to install over the summer for DIDA, these are all FOSS due to budget constraints. When the opportunity presents itself I wil also seriously consider moving to OpenOffice, but this would be a gradual process due to many years of MS Office here and schemes of work being built around it (plus retraining staff)

 

So back to Grumbledooks point, it's about reviewing FOSS or paid for software/OS, etc when a school can.

Edited July 23, 2010 by joe90bass
usual typo errors!