[sims] Sims Intouch - Have you signed up?

[BClayton]

Hi,

 

New member here. I would like to hear from schools that have signed up for the new Sims Intouch module. What do you use at the moment and how has this affected your schools strategy for ICT 2010/2011.

 

Regards,

 

Ben

[Soulfish]

Supposed to be getting a presentation from Capita on this at our next local network managers meeting. Be interested in any schools that are using this, particularly if you moved from parentmail or one of the other providers?

[Kyle]

We looked into it but found out that currently it will not recieve Voicemails from parents which means its not really any good to us as we use Truancy Call heavily.

 

However, I have been informed by Capita that the voicemail facility will come in future releases of InTouch but no date was given.

[vikpaw]

what's it cost?

[BClayton]

We currently use a Bromcom txt system and standard voice mail box for parents. These are the costs that we received from Capita last week:

 

1. SIMS InTouch Licence – 600 texts included £2,995

 

2. Annual Maintenance (Full Year) £995

3. In Touch Installation Service* £495

 

Half a day remote service to install SIMS InTouch.

*Installation Discount, if InTouch is ordered before 30.06.10 -£495

 

4. Lesson Monitor Licence £4,495

5. Lesson Monitor Annual Maintenance (Full Year) £1,995

6. Lesson Monitor training 1 day £1,150

[vikpaw]

Not sure about InTouch, i'm hearing it's still early days, and lacks certain functions.

Lesson Monitor is cool if you're sticking with the SIMS platform. We got it last year, and forsake the training day - i did it all, but i'm not sure if they'll sell it to you without in the UK.

[Banjo]

We currently use a Bromcom txt system and standard voice mail box for parents. These are the costs that we received from Capita last week:

 

1. SIMS InTouch Licence – 600 texts included £2,995

 

2. Annual Maintenance (Full Year) £995

3. In Touch Installation Service* £495

 

Half a day remote service to install SIMS InTouch.

*Installation Discount, if InTouch is ordered before 30.06.10 -£495

 

4. Lesson Monitor Licence £4,495

5. Lesson Monitor Annual Maintenance (Full Year) £1,995

6. Lesson Monitor training 1 day £1,150

 

The installation fee is the bit that niggles me. Schools that buy their support from their LA have to pay again for Capita to remote on and install it. With Capita now pushing their technical training courses, why isn't Intouch installation offered to LA's to reduce the costs to schools. Seems a bit greedy to me.

[Sarconia]

Yeah, I mean after all... £500 for an install? It can only be a) Someone remotes on and installs a patch through DBupgrade (not hard) or b) Someone remotes on and runs an installer package and clicks next 10x (also not hard).

 

£1150 for one days training? *falls over* Maybe I should start selling training!

 

Also, I like the 600 texts included... but if you compare that to the prices quoted on the schoolcomms website of £65 for 1000 texts, it means those 600 texts are worth approx £39.

 

I'm struggling to see how this is in any way not a rip off when compared to schoolcomms... for the same price you could get their most expensive multi user 1500+ students license and 20,000 texts.

[pete]

£12K initial and £3K yearly to send text messages / voicemails to parents?

 

I really need to start writing MIS addons.

[vikpaw]

Yeah, I mean after all... £500 for an install? It can only be a) Someone remotes on and installs a patch through DBupgrade (not hard) or b) Someone remotes on and runs an installer package and clicks next 10x (also not hard).

 

You're obviously used to a much better level of service

What about option c) a trainee is sent out to your site, arrives at 9am and asks that everyone is logged off the db. First step is to do a backup, this takes up nearly 30 minutes, as we also manually backup the whole S drive just in case. They proceed to try and apply the patch they brought on a memory stick but if fails, so they have to phone HQ and ask it to be emailed, but it gets quarantined. We eventually breach network security to get the required files, and then start with an install wizard, after clicking next a few times, there's a user input box, for which we have to call HQ again, and speak to the installation team expert, however he is out of the office, dealing with more important schools. We eventually, 20 mins later, get told to type in D:\sims, and at last finish the installation. At this, point we are advised to take another backup before letting other users on the system. By the time we have done this it's nearly time to go home.

option d) is when c) takes place but it still doesn't work, so we have to send out database back on the trainee's laptop for patching!

[russdev]

Having seen Intouch it is a lot more integrated with Sims.net but question is that integration is it worth extra you are paying.

 

Russ

Edited June 29, 2010 by russdev

[vikpaw]

another question, will they be removing all the links that are embedded in SIMS for schoolcomms?

[Banjo]

another question, will they be removing all the links that are embedded in SIMS for schoolcomms?

 

That depends on when the contract between them runs out and how friendly the companies still are. They were not competitors before, now they are. David Burgess (Director) moved from Capita to Schoolcomms last year, so maybe they will still play nice.

 

Talk of the Devil and I get this email.

 

"Dear Colleague

 

It was great to meet so many of you at the SIMS Conference last week. Thanks to those that attended our Elective presentation - the PowerPoint slides (including those from Becta) will be up on SupportNet shortly.

 

The purpose of this update is twofold: to give you advance notice of some Summer Special Offers available to schools (see email below) and secondly to pick up on a popular question from LA colleagues at the conference. Please feel free to make schools aware of the offers.

 

As many of you know, schools using Schoolcomms get additional buttons in SIMS that enable them to send messages (text and email) direct from the Student screens. These buttons appear on the main SIMS Student Details screen and also on SEN, Exclusions and Behaviour Management. Messages (e.g. reminders about forthcoming reviews, notification of an exclusion, praise cards for positive behaviour) can be immediately fired off when updating student information"

Edited June 29, 2010 by Banjo

[marshharrier]

Might want to look at a similar thread --> http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/56923-sims-extra-curricular-2.html

 

Before anyone asks I don't work or have any connection with Schoolcomms! I feel really sorry for these guys and other Capita partners in the same space (probably another 3 or 4 companies!)

 

Capita don't need to occupy this space and IMHO schools should NOT buy into InTouch as a protest! As usual Capita are trying to muscle in on EVERYTHING and expecting schools to pay through the nose. Vote with your feet folks or very soon all you'll be able to buy is Capita products.

 

Sorry for the strong views!

[marshharrier]

£12K initial and £3K yearly to send text messages / voicemails to parents?

 

I really need to start writing MIS addons.

 

Pete ... I really wouldn't bother. You'll spend tens of thousands of pounds building your product and selling your product to the market, you'll spend thousands paying Capita to partner with SIMS.net and then after a while Capita will move into the market themselves, smashing you and all your hard work to smithereens despite the fact that you've been paying them for years. That's what happens in the education software market ... hadn't you noticed? :-) This thread makes this point precisely.

 

H.

[matt40k]

From what i've heard it'll be good, just not sure if anyone could really afford it. Hopefully LA's will be able to support it and get the costs cut drematically.

Perhaps Capita should have a word with a few of the other companys out there. I know a few that are free setup etc, just 3p per text.

Other thing I want to know, is there a web interface so you can sent alerts remotely - such as via a web page. Let me guess, SLG add-on \ webparts... more £££.

Be nice to see a "post to facebook" option. I know, I know, love it or hate it, but come snow days, you'll be suprised how many parents facebook each other to let the other parents know the schools closed (or open in some cases).

[Mr_Writer]

Might want to look at a similar thread --> http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/56923-sims-extra-curricular-2.html

 

"Capita don't need to occupy this space and IMHO schools should NOT buy into InTouch as a protest! As usual Capita are trying to muscle in on EVERYTHING and expecting schools to pay through the nose. Vote with your feet folks or very soon all you'll be able to buy is Capita products.QUOTE]"

 

Interesing to read your comments marshharrier - reminded me of investigations being made by the OFT last year about Capita 'overcharging schools for the past 10 years' and it's 'anti-competitive behaviour' resulting from its dominance in the market - see www.kable.co.uk/capita-office-fair-trading-education-bromcom-08dec09.

 

Seems standard 'OP' for Capita - I'm note sure if the OFT has concluded it's investigations but if not I hope they will act to ensure Captia operates fairly or, as you say, we (schools) will end up with little choice but to buy Capita products - and pay big bills!

Edited June 30, 2010 by Mr_Writer

[Sarconia]

You're obviously used to a much better level of service

 

I was referring to the level of service which I, myself provide!

 

What about option c) a trainee is sent out to your site

 

Trainee's should only accompany others who are experienced really. That's what being a trainee is about, you are in training and should be trained, preferably not let loose on your own whilst you're still clueless.

 

In regard to the rest of the topic, I said the other week that Capita/SIMS are a bit like Microsoft when they had a monopoly on everything back in the 90's early 00's. They had a monopoly and their products weren't particularly great but the consumers had no choice so they ran with it anyway. Now that MS actually have some competition and have been fined by the EU (I forget how many times) they are actually much better. IE has been steadily losing it's % share of people using it and I believe that we will see a lot more people using open source OS's in the future. As soon as it's possible to play most games on Linux, I'll be gone!

 

@Mr_Writer: That is a very interesting article indeed, it seems that SIMS has always been in the spotlight on and off for anti-competitive behaviour. I remember someone at a SIMS conference once saying "Our local LA, Bedfordshire... continues to push the RM solution". I had absolutely no idea why until I looked up SIMS one day on wikipedia and I almost spat what I was drinking out all over my monitor. Now I understand that Wikipedia isn't always accurate, however... and this applies to all things, all rumours come from a truth which usually isn't known to many. There has to be some sort of fire to start the rumour going, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

[russdev]

Funny thing about anti-competitive law if one hand capita under charge they would be anti-competitive if they are over charge they get investigated by OFT just a thought...

 

Russ

[Mr_Writer]

It's not really that funny. It's nothing to do with 'undercharging' - it's the fact that Capita's diminance, with a quoted 80% of the school market, puts them in a position where they can do what the hell they like. If it's true that Capita has over charged schools by £75m over 10 years, I don't find that funny either...

 

A bit of lunchtime research has shown that the OFT has not yet responded to Bromcom on this matter.

[vikpaw]

I'm just looking at the promo webcast, and there are some features that i do like the sound of.

If it's a messaging system integrated into SIMS, i don't need to rely on the internet to synch the data.

Internal messaging then becomes a lot easier.

It would be possible to automate the messaging to a degree, such that a house leader gets a message when their house reaches a certain number of points - (thinking of a tie in to Discover / dynamic groups / reporting engine) - lots could be done.

I like the ability to add numbers / recipients on the fly.

Not sure if any of the above is possible with competing products, but i can see some benefits from it being 'in house' even if i don't agree with the monopoly or pushing out of other partners.

[marshharrier]

Funny thing about anti-competitive law if one hand capita under charge they would be anti-competitive if they are over charge they get investigated by OFT just a thought...

 

Russ

 

Russ - I don't want to turn this into an outright Capita bashing thread, but I think there is a very disturbing and not so obvious problem that is not being picked up by schools generally.

 

The more schools rely on SIMS, the more companies are forced to partner with Capita (because it makes life easier for schools), and the more Capita moves into competition with niche providers (partners) the biggers SIMS becomes .... can you see where this is going?!

 

It's a vicious circle which schools will be unable to break out of. Capita know this very well and they don't want niche providers getting any kind of foothold which might allow them to tackle the MIS sector. That is where the true anti-competitivness angle comes from i.e. stymying the market and removing future competitors while they're too small to fight back. THAT is the real hidden secret here and schools are playing straight into Capita's hands because generally speaking, they are only interested in what is easiest to do!

 

Using something which is 'inside' SIMS will ALWAYS BE EASIER than using a 3rd party product, and as long as 'easiness' is at the top of the school IT agenda, it will always triumph.

 

A long view is required right now before it is too late. Schools need to say no to Capita by not buying their bolt-ons! Only if this happens consistently will they concentrate on their MIS tool and make it as good as it could be.

[marshharrier]

Anyone seen this -> http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/61463-sims-intouch-port-requirements.html

 

I know for CERTAIN I don't want a permanent VPN connection to my database! Any connections needs to be controlled by me and not by a third party (whomever they may be!)

[matt40k]

I know for CERTAIN I don't want a permanent VPN connection to my database! Any connections needs to be controlled by me and not by a third party (whomever they may be!)

 

Sorry, I don't understand, you have a firewall, you create them a SIMS account, thus limiting what they can see and do. If you believe they've breach the agreement, you have enought logs to confirm or deny this. If they have they are subject to the data protection act (among other things).

 

I accept there is a elimate of trust, but it's no different then the trust between a head teacher and the network manager.

 

As for this idea that Capita will hold all the data, it's extremely unlikey. Capita is a business, they currently make money from creating software. Support is normally the most costly part of software. However Capita have got around this by getting LA and other 3rd parties to support the software. Training, new installs etc is all chargable.

 

I can't see public sector getting true 100% uptime connectively. The only sector is the emegerency services, where downtime is measured in lives. I've not heard of many places with true 100% uptime, dual feed connects feed via separate ducts, carriers etc. I can see LA's doing it, I mean if the internet goes down, I can see someone driving out with a replace server, but from Bedford? I doubt it.

[PiqueABoo]

It's a VPN as in "N is for Network", not an TLS-ised specific application protocol. It necessarily sails through an edge firewall to the relevant box, which I suppose if it's a big fat and relatively expensive SQL app server might host some other DBs. The point of VPNs is that any traffic can be stuffed through one, and of course the standard security practice for VPNs has you terminate them outside a firewall so you can filter what comes out of them.

 

So, does the config you get by default limit it just talking SQL protocols from Capita-land (and how would that be limited to a specific SQL instance)? And if not where/how do you configure what's allowed to pop out of it at your end? Apparently doesn't use certs for mutual auth. either so how good is that shared secret and how widely is it shared i.e. are they unique per site and what's the entropy like?

 

As for this idea that Capita will hold all the data, it's extremely unlikey

 

Mr Neal seems to think it will all end up in shipping containers sooner or later. Personally I think there still a few cost of bandwidth vs. increasing data bloat issues to contend with. Plus with a lot of business critical eggs in a basket the very first outage longer than say 36 hours i.e. hitting Day 2, will put a lot of folk into reverse.