iPad in schools

[localzuk]

That is just the thing. Someone said earlier that we need to find way to integrate these things into the curriculum. Madness! Buy them because you need them, not because you are going to have to find a way to use them.

 

I agree in a way - but those reasons need not be to do something that you need to do now - it could be a new thing that people haven't done before. For example, I can think of loads of uses for a group of PDAs - data collection for geography or science trips, as personal voice recorders for podcasts, as scientific calculators in maths, as quick 'internet access' devices in any lesson - to research something, as dictionaries, access to the periodic table, as a replacement to student diaries etc... Dozens of potential uses.

 

The problem comes when the devices are bought without consulting staff first, and coming up for a plan of action BEFORE actually getting the devices. That way, you start with loads of ideas, get the devices to suit the number of children who will be using them, and then use them and see what ideas actually work well on them.

 

Buying 24 devices and then turning to the staff and saying 'here, use them' is always going to have the same result - 'how? why? when?'. Guidance on their use needs producing, training given etc...

[Guest theeldergeek]

I don't think you're against the use of tech in schools, what I do think is that your level of justification required seems to be a lot higher than I would expect. Dozens of reasons to justify the use of personal devices have been given, and so far you've only really repeated your same objection claiming there is no justification as yet. That's how I see it anyway.

 

Dozens of reasons? A handful perhaps, of which I've been in agreement, mostly. Just look back through the posts I've made. It's the rash decisions to buy handheld technology for no apparent reason other than it's supposedly essential to the future of education that puzzles me. Again, you are taking my comments out of context.

 

I have already acknowledged on a personal level that I'm not happy with providing teenagers with laptops. Don't confuse that with the other aspect of this discussion.

[jamesb]

But thats a job for an accountant, right? My mate is one of the best block pavers around and he employes one, when my mom was self employed, she had one.

Being, sub par at maths wont and didnt stop anyone from earning a good living.

 

My parents are self-employed, and now have an accountant. When they were starting to build their business they could not afford to pay an accountant. Maths comes in kind of useful then.

 

Not only that, but it's useful to be able to check the amount of change you get, make informed decisions when you read anything with misleading graphs (ones with non-zero origins for example), actually understand statistics in the news (you can see the lack of understanding of stats everywhere these days), risk-benefit analysis at a basic level (is it worth me buying the £30/month breakdown cover when I've got a reliable car), work out restaurant bills, understand interest rates on bank accounts and loans, and many, many other reasons.

 

So while I suppose you could argue that having sub-par mathematics skills won't prevent you from making a living, it will impact your life in all sorts of little, inconvenient ways. I'm not saying that everyone should be expected to understand how to calculate quadratic equations, but basic mathematics skills are not valued highly enough as it is.

 

How does your mate the block paver work out how many blocks he needs to pave an area? I'd be surprised if he doesn't jot down some quick calculations to work out the materials he needs for a particular job.

[enjay]

But thats a job for an accountant, right? My mate is one of the best block pavers around and he employes one, when my mom was self employed, she had one.

Being, sub par at maths wont and didnt stop anyone from earning a good living.

 

You'd earn a better living if you weren't paying your accountant though! Your block paver friend needs to be able to work out how many blocks and bags of cement to buy for a specific job, so would need to know how to calculate area. Also, maths skills would help him realise that his supplier has over-charged him.

 

Edit: just noticed jamesb beat me to basically the same reply!

[Guest theeldergeek]

The problem comes when the devices are bought without consulting staff first, and coming up for a plan of action BEFORE actually getting the devices. That way, you start with loads of ideas, get the devices to suit the number of children who will be using them, and then use them and see what ideas actually work well on them.

 

Buying 24 devices and then turning to the staff and saying 'here, use them' is always going to have the same result - 'how? why? when?'

 

I'm pretty sure that is much of what I've been saying all along

[Robbocop]

Guys, this is an amazing discussion thread. It's sort of drifted off the original topic, but I think it's opened out to a wider discussion about technology which might be worth bumping to a different forum for wider consumption? Many subscribers are allergic to the Mac forum

[Guest theeldergeek]

Probably not very often, because of how long it actually takes. If, however, you could provide a quick and easy way of switching between computer-based and paper-based work, you would likely find it happening quite a lot. Technology can be used to ease existing practice, but it also serves to enable new practice - build it and they will come, to quote Wayne's World!

 

I'm not saying it can't, but I think it is a weak point to make to justify buying a science class (for example) a whole bunch of laptops for the scenario posed, however real it might be. Notwithstanding of course, it is still a valid reason which could be shared across curriculum departments via a lapsafe trolley for example.

 

We used to have that very situation here. We had 2 lapsafe trolleys with about 20 laptops in each. The laptops are now stacked on a shelf in our server room. Mostly beyond economical repair and no longer required by the teaching staff. We don't even get asked about them. I can only speak from experience that the very scenario you pose for buying a whole bunch of laptops - that is to switch between computer and paper based study - was more or less a failure in our school. Loudly called for, quietly discarded.

 

Not suggesting that that is typical of what would happen, but it is something we would seriously take into consideration if the request for such a facility was again raised.

Edited May 11, 2010 by theeldergeek

[Guest theeldergeek]

Guys, this is an amazing discussion thread. It's sort of drifted off the original topic, but I think it's opened out to a wider discussion about technology which might be worth bumping to a different forum for wider consumption? Many subscribers are allergic to the Mac forum

 

I agree. How do we do this? I've just looked at "reporting this post", but it quite clearly says that that method is only to be used for such things as spam, profanity etc.

Edited May 11, 2010 by theeldergeek

[Guest theeldergeek]

You'd earn a better living if you weren't paying your accountant though!

 

Somewhat off topic, but I feel I need to reply. My accountant cost me circa £400 a year when I was self employed. I saved more than that in the tax I didn't pay because of the loopholes and strings he could pull. I undoubtedly earned more by having an accountant than if I had not. Not to mention the additional hours I would have had to put in if I had done it all myself.

[localzuk]

I'm pretty sure that is much of what I've been saying all along

 

I took your argument to mean more than that though. I took it to mean that schools shouldn't look at new technologies until teachers start shouting for them. I'm saying that as new technology becomes available it should be looked at and places where it could be used identified. If those places exist, then they should be bought/trialled etc...

 

It shouldn't just be a case of only going 'we have an issue where staff are spending 30 minutes out of every day wasting lesson time, what technology can fix that' (although that should be another avenue of exploration).

[Guest theeldergeek]

I took your argument to mean more than that though. I took it to mean that schools shouldn't look at new technologies until teachers start shouting for them

 

No, that wasn't my argument.

 

I'm saying that as new technology becomes available it should be looked at and places where it could be used identified. If those places exist, then they should be bought/trialled etc...

 

That's what is done here, almost. We maybe don't go as far as buying something to trial it, we simply don't have the budget to do that. We have a focus group who meet fairly regularly to discuss new ideas concerning technology and learning collaboration.

[GrumbleDook]

Why do we need to change something that works? Victorian values aren't a bad thing, why do we need to move on from them? It's OK for people to say "we really must move on", but they don't say why. Progress or progress for progress sake? I'm always willing to accept change, just as long as it isn't change for the sake of change. If that change will result in a better way of doing things, then I'm all for it.

 

I'm not convinced (yet) that the introduction of portable learning devices into schools is a better way of doing things.

 

Victorian values? Forced adoption for children of unmarried mothers? Oh .. you mean educational values? Or do you really mean Victorian educational methods ... designed for the days of the factory. If you want to see how things have moved on then go and visit any of the top 10 states schools. Go and speak to folk like Stephen Heppell.

 

I know we are violently agreeing on the same thing (if it is appropriate then make use of it), but I think we might just be disagree on the methods of justification. HHL conference allows me to see good examples (and bad actually). It also allows people to see where barriers to change are. These barriers to change don't just centre around technology but lots of other things too. Barriers like teachers being the only people who might understand education, about resiting in changing teaching styles (chalk & talk can work well ... but so can other models ... ) and so on. I just really hate nay-sayers who resist anything different. I am just happy to give things a try *if thought out properly*.

[torledo]

I'm not saying it can't, but I think it is a weak point to make to justify buying a science class (for example) a whole bunch of laptops for the scenario posed, however real it might be. Notwithstanding of course, it is still a valid reason which could be shared across curriculum departments via a lapsafe trolley for example.

 

We used to have that very situation here. We had 2 lapsafe trolleys with about 20 laptops in each. The laptops are now stacked on a shelf in our server room. Mostly beyond economical repair and no longer required by the teaching staff. We don't even get asked about them. I can only speak from experience that the very scenario you pose for buying a whole bunch of laptops - that is to switch between computer and paper based study - was more or less a failure in our school. Loudly called for, quietly discarded.

 

Not suggesting that that is typical of what would happen, but it is something we would seriously take into consideration if the request for such a facility was again raised.

 

i do actually appreciate what your saying. if i understand correctly it's more an aversion to the fad nature of

a lot of these things. it all seems rather unimaginative the idea of classrooms full of netbooks or handhelds

being the magic bullet and all sorts of assumptions being made about how they'll engage and change. i actually

prefer the wait and see approach, because you can get through several iterations of a product in quite

a short space of time.....and forklift upgrades are expensive.

 

from a technical point of view, what's great for a technician are devices which can be easier to manage,

and replace. something like an ipad with an appropriate mgmt tool to send config policies over-the-air [

and i'm not sure they exist yet]

sounds like it could be a hell of a lot more fun than managing, patching, keeping charged a trolley full of

netbooks.

 

it ain't a magic bullet, teachers should be encouraged to explore these devices, and fair play to those doing

the testing and experimenting....ultimately i think the aim should be for better experiences with technology

not just for teachers and pupils but for also techies aswell. i think a lot of the cynism that exists is justified,

especially if you look at it from an support perspective and the cost of buying into such solutions [or rather

the true cost once you start taking into account 'add-on' pricing that you need to deliver workable solutions.]

 

but also some of the support problems exist because of a proliferation of devices from different vendors,

different software, configurations etc. there's something to be said for a certian level of standardsation for your

org, whether it be school or large company....doesn't somehow mean your boring and can't be innovative.

because you can. and it's practicality. being focused on product selection brings it's own advantages.

[HodgeHi]

Hmm. Interesting thread. Some of the views are clearly expressed. However while I agree with eldergeek to some extent, sometimes we as the ICT support see these devices and new 'gadgets' before anyone else does. Occasionally you need to have an open-mind and perhaps a bit of vision of their possible potential. If you just dismiss stuff because you say 'we don't need those' then you may be closing the door on something positive before it's even been thought of.

 

You also say that you don't want to support these devices in the short term. What if someone again goes behind your back and buys a load?

 

My point of view. I can see potential in these devices. They go into standby and if they work like the iPhone would be up and usable at the press of a button. I wouldn't buy a whole school full. Probably more like a laptop trolley full and again have them as a bookable resource. I could see their usefulness out on School trips and stuff. Research on the go due to the long battery life. As has been mentioned batteries do depreciate over time. You would need to look after them.

 

As from a management point of view. From what I have read they seem to be relatively easy to manage. If you run an exchange server, then possibly even more so. Deployment should be made vastly easier when OS 4.0 arrives allowing for deployment over Wifi. But would I buy them? probably not as they don't have built-in cameras. If these devices had built-in cameras then more than likely would have liked some. They could have been ace for our little ones to pop off down to our nature reserve and research their Mini-Beasts.

 

In contrast to this management of PDAs was a nightmare. In my experience, not worth the effort. Once staff had let them die they then reset to default settings. The amount of time this happened. I think though now you can copy the configured devices into the flash memory.

 

Also people mention about getting 2 netbooks for the price of one iPad. This makes me laugh. In the first breath they all moan about how much they hate supporting netbooks/laptops in the classroom.

 

Overall it seems to me that the arguments against the iPads are more about Apple devices than new technology. Hence most of the hypocritical statements made with regards to some of the reasoning for not having new technology on Schools. Sometimes it is our job to find the reasons for new technology, otherwise we would all still be using NT4 and Windows 3.11.

 

After all there was never a NEED for virtualised servers.

 

PS. I don't mean to offend anyone. If I have done so then my apologies

Edited May 11, 2010 by HodgeHi
mini beasts statements

[glennda]

It has apple written on it so i cannot come near my network full stop! To be honest i can't see the usefulness of devices like this. Why can't a netbook be used at half the price!

[HodgeHi]

It has apple written on it so i cannot come near my network full stop! To be honest i can't see the usefulness of devices like this. Why can't a netbook be used at half the price!

 

Because most people moan about supporting netbooks/laptops already on their networks. You've only got to read through the forums about laptop trolleys etc. How does this suddenly change to being OK when something else comes along?

[Guest theeldergeek]

Victorian values? Forced adoption for children of unmarried mothers? Oh .. you mean educational values? Or do you really mean Victorian educational methods ... designed for the days of the factory. If you want to see how things have moved on then go and visit any of the top 10 states schools. Go and speak to folk like Stephen Heppell.

 

I know we are violently agreeing on the same thing (if it is appropriate then make use of it), but I think we might just be disagree on the methods of justification. HHL conference allows me to see good examples (and bad actually). It also allows people to see where barriers to change are. These barriers to change don't just centre around technology but lots of other things too. Barriers like teachers being the only people who might understand education, about resiting in changing teaching styles (chalk & talk can work well ... but so can other models ... ) and so on. I just really hate nay-sayers who resist anything different. I am just happy to give things a try *if thought out properly*.

 

 

Despite the obvious bait, I'm not going to furnish you with a reply to your comments about Victorian values; suffice to say, I believe you know full well what I meant.

 

FWIW - in the main, I don't disagree with you regarding the conference and what it can bring - let's hope it meets your expectations and in turn those of the people who are actually affected the most by the wheelers, dealers and decision makers. Namely those who have to use the devices and those who have to support them.

 

Myself, I've always attend such events (and as a freelance technician having worked for a conference management company, I have attended dozens of conferences) with a bit of a cynical attitude. I tend to go in not too excited by it all and if I'm honest, a bit 'anti' it all. I've witnessed first hand how deals are done and let's be honest, profit is bottom line. There are going to be 'independent' people there who undoubtedly have more than a advisory interest in the technology, and who will tell you till they go blue in the face why we apparently need "change".

 

Lord knows, Cameron has adopted that damn "change" word himself, so I expect it will become something we will all have to embrace at work, play and wherever else we might be expected to do something different where we were previously getting by without any real bother.

 

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything", said George Bernard Shaw, and i agree with him, but I also don't want "change" shoved down my throat. I want that change thought about, mulled over and questioned. Then I want it changed to address the concerns raised so that the change becomes a change that is for the better, not a change that someone else decided was needed because "change" happened to be corporate buzz word of the month.

 

Anyway, I digress - aside from your comments at the top of the discussion, I regard you as otherwise an intelligent person, and I've little doubt (and to be honest, have quiet enthusiasm) that you will be impartial to the business of who can provide the biggest bung to get the latest gadget into the classroom and perhaps we can have a blog on your findings when you return?

 

Enjoy.

 

As an aside, some of us don't actually get to hear about, or are ever made aware of such conferences until it is too late to attend. Is there a one stop 'notice board' where conference dates etc can be posted?

[GrumbleDook]

@theeldergeek : damn you for spotting my cunning troll ;-) Only ever intended to provoke discussion and highlight that the 'traditional' ideas of teaching may have been fit for purpose then but need to be re-evaluated for the present day. Offence not intended and thank you for taking it in the spirit it was meant.

 

Unfortunately I can't think of a single place where all the conferences are put. There used to be a calendar section on here for events (non-subscribable unfortunately) in the days of yore (EG v1) but it was left to only ahandful to put things on... and of course died a death due to time constraints. We also have the problem of whether folk just want technical events or whether educational events would be good too. Personally I think stick it all on.

 

BCS has an events calendar but it is behind the login screen ... the one that used to be in IT Week is now gone in Computing ... TES don't do one either ... Becta, SSAT and DCSF events are non-subscribable too ... do you see a trend here? I did look at putting together a calendar (aimed at people wanting to find out about TeachMeets mainly but also so i could let folk know about local IT Meetings and regional EMBC events) but it was to dependent on just me ... But since you have sparked it off in my mind again I will pop over to comments and suggestions to see if we can have a subscribable calendar on here (iCal / jCal compatible?) which people can add suggested events on to (possibly even sponsors can notify of events they are holding?)

[PEO]

The ipad comes with ts own version office... well not office but apples equivelant. can you join it to a domain and allow users to logon to it. the other thing is internet issues, what about internet access, how would you know who accessed what and when, remembering that we have a duty to protect all children. etc etc

 

I like to know whats going on, when, how, why etc... probably over the top.

[GrumbleDook]

Reading some of the comments on various lists about what Keynote is like on it I am not that impressed. The AppleKeynote group on yahoo (applekeynote : The Keynote Users Group) rips it apart ... basically for those used to the full feature set of Keynote on a Mac then Keynote on the iPad is a let down, and I have heard similar on Numbers and Pages too. As basic tools they will do just fine, but for any serious user then they are unlikely to be happy. To some extent I felt that way about trying to using Office apps on windows mobile. I just had to accept the limitations. However, I am impressed with The Elements and there are other apps that are quite good on the iPhone / iPod, such as Animoto videos and AudioBoo, which could be even better on the iPad. Seadragon mobile is also very nice too. I am waiting to see what happens with Prezi as well.

[enjay]

However while I agree with eldergeek to some extent, sometimes we as the ICT support see these devices and new 'gadgets' before anyone else does. Occasionally you need to have an open-mind and perhaps a bit of vision of their possible potential. If you just dismiss stuff because you say 'we don't need those' then you may be closing the door on something positive before it's even been thought of.

 

I think that's an important point. We often do hear about things first, because we're the ones going to BETT, RM seminars, EduGeek and a million other geek and tech sites, so I think that we/ICT Co-ordinators have a responsibility to keep teaching colleagues apprised with new "stuff". It isn't our place to say "this is great, you must get one (or 30!) and shoe-horn it into your curriculum", but it is our place to say "hey, saw this and wondered if it is something you'd like to look at". To this end, we are hoping to set up a strategy / steering group comprising IT Support, ICT Co-ord, SLT and some of the more tech-minded teachers to do just that.

[glennda]

Because most people moan about supporting netbooks/laptops already on their networks. You've only got to read through the forums about laptop trolleys etc. How does this suddenly change to being OK when something else comes along?

 

I only said that because i don't like apple products as i think they are way over priced for something that the likes of ubuntu/debian can do most of for free!

[HodgeHi]

What would be the general consensus if this was a Windows-based slate device perhaps like the one HP was going to release? Would everything be magically Ok even though it was identical apart from the OS?

[enjay]

What would be the general consensus if this was a Windows-based slate device perhaps like the one HP was going to release? Would everything be magically Ok even though it was identical apart from the OS?

 

If it was Windows-based, we would be a hundred steps closer to decent integration with our network, which would greatly increase the usability of the devices, so it would be better, not everything (and not magical!) but definitely an improvement.

[CHR1S]

How does your mate the block paver work out how many blocks he needs to pave an area? I'd be surprised if he doesn't jot down some quick calculations to work out the materials he needs for a particular job.

 

Hes good at maths, I said sub par you just assumed he couldnt add 2+2. My point that perhaps I didnt make well is that they dont have GCSEs, its all about how this is interpreted. People always assume that this bit of paper is the be all and end all even more so in the so called core subjects.