TimeTabler and SIMS

[Top_Cat]

Is anyone out there using Keith Johnson's 'TimeTabler', instead of Nova-T, with SIMS.net? If so, what's the verdict? How does the upload to SIMS.net compare for example?

[Sarconia]

I've never actually used TimeTabler myself but have supported quite a few schools who do in transferring their timetable which was created in TimeTabler into SIMS.net. It uses the same curriculum matching wizard as Nova T6 so the export of the timetable into SIMS.net looks virtually the same, I've never had any problems with it and niether have the schools who use it.

[Keith-Johnson]

TimeTabler exporting to SIMS .net

 

There's more on this topic in the following 2 threads:

 

- http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/17729-nova-t6-keith-johnsons-timetabler-2.html

 

- http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/6224-sims-net-timetable-planning-2.html#post406124

Edited April 26, 2010 by Keith-Johnson

[Top_Cat]

OK Keith. You wrote this package which our new timetabler is quite keen on switching to. He doesn't like the look of Nova-T and doesn't think we should spend a shedload on a four-day training course when he can teach himself Timetabler in an hour or two online (I have to say I find this a totally unbelievable claim but then I'm not a timetabler!)

 

Now, I don't care if the timetable is drafted on the back of a beer-mat and shoved into our network via a floppy-disk drive (if you can find one!) However, I carry the can for everything that happens from the Timetable-SIMS interface onwards. It has been working perfectly with Nova for the last two-and-a-half years since I've been here and I don't want to see the slightest difference with things such as curriculum assignments, room and staff management, assessment management or profiling. In short, the timetable has to upload into SIMS perfectly and must behave exactly the same as it used to!

 

Can I expect this?

[Keith-Johnson]

I don't think I can add much more than has been said by Sarconia above, and by others in the comments shown in the links listed above.

 

We [October Resolutions Ltd] are an official Capita-SIMS Partner; TimeTabler has an official export-import link to SIMS .net, and it uses exactly the same curriculum matching wizard as Nova T6 to transfer the completed timetable into SIMS .net.

 

For the Export stage of the process [within TimeTabler] we provide full step-by-step documentation for the timetabler [and yourself if you are sitting alongside during this stage].

 

For the Import stage, because it uses exactly the same wizard as Nova T6, the screens will be familar to you.

 

I hope that helps.

[Top_Cat]

I'm still a bit confused by this 'export' and 'import' wizard stuff. Nova-T6 has a routine called 'Export Curriculum and Timetable to SQL' which is a one-stop shop. A single wizard does the whole thing: it exports the timetable from Nova-T6 and imports it into SIMS in one neat process.

 

It sounds like Timetabler only exports the timetable (to where?) How does it then get imported into SIMS (from where?)

[andykemp]

He doesn't like the look of Nova-T and doesn't think we should spend a shedload on a four-day training course when he can teach himself Timetabler in an hour or two online.

I think you might be slightly exaggerating what I said! Having spent several hours reading books on the general approach to timetabling including the Timetabler's Cookbook; and being a through and through mathematician I found the process in Timetabler more transparent and appeared more logical to me (very much my personal opinion). When I said I could teach it to myself how to use the software I had in mind a figure a bit larger than 2hours!!

 

Now, I don't care if the timetable is drafted on the back of a beer-mat and shoved into our network via a floppy-disk drive (if you can find one!)

If I can find a large enough beer mat, I'd be quite up for this approach... Maybe someone should work on a import routine for SIMS!!

[Keith-Johnson]

Top_Cat : you query my use of the terms 'Export and 'Import'. It simply refers to the two halves of the process, part of which takes place in TimeTabler (exporting) and part of which takes place in SIMS .net (importing). That's all.

 

About learning to use the software : we provide a range of learning & support materials for TimeTabler, including:

--A library of HelpMovies (video tutorials),

--interactive HelpScreens, via Help buttons on the screens,

--a fully-illustrated printed Manual, with dozens of Worked Examples,

--a QuickStart Guide,

--a KnowledgeBase of articles in the 24/7 Support Centre,

--a HelpLine provided by experienced timetablers,

and

--(on timetabling principles) 'The Timetabler's CookBook'.

 

These allow Timetablers to learn at their own pace, without needing to leave school to attend an expensive 4-day course.

How long it takes will vary from timetabler to timetabler, ...but certainly no-one else offers such in-depth and expert support.

 

 

.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Keith-Johnson

[Top_Cat]

keith

 

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by 'the two halves of the process'. I can find nothing in SIMS.net which allows me to import a timetable. Both export and import is combined in a single process within Nova-T, there is no separate timetable import process in SIMS.net. Are you suggesting that the timetable is exported from Timetabler into Nova-T and then into SIMS.net?

[Top_Cat]

I think you might be slightly exaggerating what I said!

 

Sorry, Andy - no offence intended! You pointed out that the training can be done online - Keith Johnson's website clearly indicates that this takes between one-and-a-quarter and one-and-a-half hours - it is this claim I find unbelievable.

 

If you've been following the thread, I'm sure you'll agree that I'm being given the run-around here. It's emminently possible that there's a timetable import route in SIMS which I haven't found yet, but I've been looking really hard, time may be running out and I'm getting the jitters because nobody is answering my specific questions. All I'm getting is sales-talk from Keith Johnson and some second-hand opinions from Sarconia.

 

I spoke to someone yesterday, at a SIMS software consultation group, who had used Timetabler with SIMS - he liked Timetabler very much, echoing many of the positive comments I've read elsewhere. He didn't describe the exact process for getting the timetable into SIMS but did warn me it wasn't easy and would need some intervention and tweaking once it was in SIMS to make it work. This doesn't ease my anxiety!

[Keith-Johnson]

Top_Cat : Please read what is being written rather than jumping to conclusions.

 

Taking your points in order:

 

1. You say "I don't know what you mean by 'the two halves of the process". Conceptually there are two halves (see above) ...'Exporting' from TimeTabler and 'Importing' into SIMS .net.

Reason :

(a) In TimeTabler you naturally have to choose which timetable to export [of the several experiments that you might have done], and you need to add the dates for which the timetable is valid, etc, etc. You can also choose the format/style of the TeachingGroup Names [eg. 7A/Ma1, etc]. This 'export' step takes place in TimeTabler, after the timetabler has completed the timetable, usually after colleagues have commented on it. After it has been approved and accepted, the timetabler decides when to click on the Export button.

(b) At the end of that part of the process, TimeTabler fires up the usual SIMS Import Wizard [it's called currmatch.exe by Capita] and the import starts. You will recognise this part, with the usual SIMS matching screen if there has been a previous import, etc.

 

2. You say "Keith Johnson's website clearly indicates that this takes between one-and-a-quarter and one-and-a-half hours - it is this claim I find unbelievable." Please read the web-site carefully ...it is referring to the free Tutorial (demo) version of TimeTabler which shows you the main features. Naturally this Tutorial version doesn't show you in detail how to schedule your complicated Sixth Form Option Blocks etc ...these are explained in the separate HelpMovies (video tutorials) as and when and if you need them.

 

3. You say "It's emminently possible that there's a timetable import route in SIMS which I haven't found yet, but I've been looking really hard,". The timetable import is the one used by Nova-T6 ...it is called currmatch.exe ...it is run automatically by T6 and by TimeTabler when it is needed.

 

I hope things are clearer now.

 

 

 

.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Keith-Johnson

[Sivadam]

... which our new timetabler is quite keen on switching to. He doesn't like the look of Nova-T ...

 

One wonders why this 'new' timetabler doesn't like the look of Nova-T.

Is it because it looks complicated or what?

Timetabling in itself is complicated art anyway............

I know that Timetabler has a good repututation - but then so does Nova. And as a Nova User for over a quarter of a century I can guarantee that it is a brilliant solution and, after all, is packaged as part of the SIMS Curriculum suite anyway. Why on earth would (s)he want to look elsewhere when you already have the ideal solution? I would at least suggest the new timetabler looks at a school using NT6, if (s)he has not already done so!

Edited April 30, 2010 by Sivadam

[Top_Cat]

Many thanks to Keith Johnson for clarifying that the SIMS.net wizard is called from within Timetabler. That's what I hoped to hear.

 

Thanks also to Silvadam for your comments. I will leave it to Andykemp, our timetabler, who is following this thread, to detail - if he wishes - his concerns about Nova-T. These appear to me to be perfectly valid, but then, I'm not a timetabler so I have to rely on the advice from colleagues such as Andy who know more about the subject. I'm only concerned about the Timetabler to SIMS interface, if we choose to switch products. This exchange of views and comments has - at last - gone a long way towards re-assuring me.

[PhilNeal]

Just to pitch in we're very proud of NOVA but Timetabler is a worthy competitor. Timetabler uses the same links as NOVA so this should not be a problem. If you don't know NOVA you might find it cheaper to buy Timetabler than do the training. Obviously we will try to make NOVA the best

[andykemp]

Just to explain to Sivadam why I am considering an alternative package to NovaT. As I am coming in fresh to timetabling, I have no experience with any particular package and whatever I do I will need to learn something. I am well aware of the complex (dark-art) that is timetabling and have already read several books on the theory of timetabling including Keith's book the Timetabler's Cookbook which I found very useful (and would encourage anyone new to timetabling to read as it gives an excellent overview of the theory from a mostly platform agnostic point of view).

 

So at this stage I have to choose between NovaT which we already have (but hasn't been hugely successful these last few years since we added IB alongside A-levels making the process more complex). I am not saying that is the fault of NovaT, it may well be that we just don't know how to use it to its best. However as the basic introductory course for NovaT would cost us over £1K (including VAT and travel), it seemed prudent to see if there were alternatives out there that might do the job for us...

 

My concern with NovaT, is having had a tour of the software from the current timetabler and having read 'Making the most of SIMS.net - Timetabling for School Effectiveness'; and skimmed a few hundred pages of the manual I'm still finding it hard to see how it all fits together, and what it all does. That's not to say that it isn't a very powerful solution merely that I find it's approach more difficult to comprehend.

 

I think part of it is being a Mathematician (and Head of Maths) I quite enjoy the puzzle of doing the timetable manually, which is how I do the departmental allocations which are very complex. I'm certainly not saying I would want to do the whole timetable with a peg-board; but I like following the logic of the decisions and I found it hard to see why NovaT made some of the decisions it made - which in turn would make it difficult for me to explain to staff why I made those compromises rather than other ones... (Again I am happy to say that this might be because I don't know NovaT well enough)

 

Whereas when I worked through the demo version of Timetabler, I found the process very clear, logical and intuitive. It felt much more to me like an automated version of a manual approach - all be it with a lot more sophistication than that - but this meant that I felt more in control of the situation, and felt like I was making the decisions not the software. Having spoken to several other timetablers, at other independent schools they have also found Timetabler to be an excellent solution for their needs. And all of them highly rate the support that Keith provides; which I find highly appealing as being an independent school we don't have any support from the LEA, and Capita support can be quite costly.

 

Our timetable structure isn't ridiculously complicated; but like any school it has it's complications and knowing there is someone I can phone/email to ask advice from is an important safety-net when you are new to the process.

 

Given that the cost of Timetabler is less than the cost of just the basic NovaT course, it seemed like it would be silly for us to not at least consider it as an alternative solution.

 

Sivadam - If you think I have misjudged the situation, and can advise why I should rethink NovaT, I would be happy to hear it...

[Sivadam]

It is a pity that you are so far away as I could then easily show you the merits of NT6.

I appreciate that you have seen demos etc. but to dismiss it without actually seeing it in action in a school seems quite strange.

 

As to the logic - in the dim and distant past I seem to remember being a Head of Science (and a Timetabler at the same time!). The logic was obviously there but so was the capacity to think outside the box, to solve the solutions to problems that surface in (all) Timetable construction.

 

And, as to the control you have in using the NT6 software, then you can have as much as you want. I do not use automatic scheduling until the vast majority of my timetable has been scheduled - there are far too many variables in terms of offsite provision for vocational courses that have to match the times these are available with the external providers and with the various blocking patterns that different departments want. For these reasons much of my timetabling has to be manual (but in NT6)!

 

I actually pre-date any computer Timetabling, in my case it was a magnetic A3 board technique (so I could see ALL the timetable in a single view). The appearance of Nova DOS was my first experience of PC Timetabling. I then no longer had to balance 3 timetables in my head at once - Staff, Pupils and Rooms (but I still actually have all this in mind when I am producing the curriculum plans in NT6).

 

Whatever you choose to do I wish you all the best in your new venture. Should you have any difficulties then I am always available via SupportNet, as are many others who are experienced NT6 users! I know that this facility is very useful to NT6 users as those who pose problems can get a different opinions on the way to solve issues. There are often several ways of resolving a Timetable problem and the help of a variety of experienced timetablers is often invaluable in finding the solution that best suits your needs.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Sivadam

[vikpaw]

We moved away from Timetabler to NovaT6 at my insistence, and the timetabler is still getting to grips with it, it's a slow and steady battle.

One thing that is apparently lacking, but i would love to be shown i am wrong, is the availability of a combing chart. Not a timetabler, so not too sure what it's purpose is, but it's something to do with scheduling and finding the best fit, which Timetabler does (did for us), but we now can't do with NT6...

[garrysaddington]

You could also try FET (Free Evolutionary timetabler) and not pay a penny. - FET - Free Timetabling Software

[andykemp]

vikpaw - I am interested to know why you moved from Timetabler to NovaT. What it because there was something that Timetabler couldn't do that you needed, or was it due to other external pressures? I have seen a few comments about the lack of combing charts in NovaT6 (from what I can tell they were in NovaT4), and there absence (as they seem a very sensible checking process) is another reason why I was considering Timetabler.

 

garrysaddington - I looked at FET but as far as I could tell there was no way to get the timetable from FET into SIMS.net which meant ti would not work for us...

[garrysaddington]

I looked at FET but as far as I could tell there was no way to get the timetable from FET into SIMS.net which meant ti would not work for us...

When you generate the timetable it outputs a .csv file which *should* be enough to import. However, I don't know SIMS so someone else may be able to provide the import spec.

[vikpaw]

vikpaw - I am interested to know why you moved from Timetabler to NovaT. What it because there was something that Timetabler couldn't do that you needed, or was it due to other external pressures? I have seen a few comments about the lack of combing charts in NovaT6 (from what I can tell they were in NovaT4), and there absence (as they seem a very sensible checking process) is another reason why I was considering Timetabler.

 

hi andy,

 

my predecessor was in charge of some aspects of sims, but wasn't the timetabler, and at this stage we used Timetabler, and had only just begun to start using SIMS for things like reports, which requires a timetable. For two years running the import into SIMs from Timetabler didnt work and the timetable needed putting in manually which was a real put off. I believe these issues are now sorted but, as nobody wants to fiddle with the timetable, and we had to have it in SIMS, it seemed easier to use NovaT.

 

add to that, we used NovaT at my previous school, so i already had some experience, and it was really a no brainer for us, merely for convenience, if nothing else. We do lose some functions, and last year the timetabler duplicated the timetable into Timetabler in order to get decent printouts, with colours and everything else he was used to. He may well have created the first drafts in Timetabler before moving them to NT6.

 

i have posted elsewhere, here and on supportnet regarding features we struggle with, so look around to see what others think.

 

we don't use Nova to it's full potential (yet!), and we do some things wrong, we also really miss some Timetabler functions, but overall, we felt it just made sense to use the integrated package alongside SIMS.

 

if you find Timetabler easier to use, and cheaper, i'd go for it. especially if you have support to help you if anything goes wrong, and your IT guy seems to be willing to support your decision

 

what i would suggest is that at the same time, try and have a play with NT6, and get to grips with it in your own time, learn what the limitations are as well as what you can use it for.

[Top_Cat]

and your IT guy seems to be willing to support your decision

 

Thanks, Vik, for my in-advertent promotion! I'm just the humble SIMS Manager. However, I've worked in SIMS support for 18 years, on and off - even before Capita bought it! In all my years as a consultant, before settling down in one place, I've never known a school using SIMS which didn't use either SIMS Timetable (which I understand was awful!) or its successor, Nova-T (which they all told me was brilliant!)

 

This is why I feel I'm being taken out of my comfort zone. It's my job to make sure that the Cover Officers have all the correct data they need, that the - very extensive - Assessment Manager and Profiles 7 structures I've put in place work correctly and the Curriculum Assignment processes operate like clockwork. All this relies on the timetable being efficiently maintained (something I would certainly trust Andy with) and smoothly imported into SIMS (this is the bit that still slightly concerns me).

 

My gut feeling, based on my background, is that we have Nova-T6 and SIMS.net working very nicely from my point of view, thank you, so why fix a clock that ain't broken? However, it's not I that has to learn how to create a timetable for the first time and not I who has to satisfy the requirements of a large and very diverse set of departments. This thread has been very useful for me in broadening my outlook. Thanks to everyone who's stuck in their four-penn'orth!

 

Terry Chivers

[vikpaw]

no offence intended Terry, i'm merely the SIMs Co-ordinator here, but have a techy background, and answer to most titles (SIMS guy, IT guy, tech, oi, ....).

 

i supported NT4 into NT6 as i said before, and after coming here have actually used it, it's pretty straight forward to get to grips with if you just want to input a pre-created timetable, armed with a couple of hours and the manual. The primary school timetables here are still done on paper and then i input them into NT6 for the purpose of reporting. We are also starting to use Curriculum and Lesson Planner so it needs something to work with.

 

As a last resort, the design could be done outside and the implementation put in manually, however, i've heard from others, that the import works ok now, and i imagine getting tech support from Keith / Timetabler in the UK is easier that it is for us here when we only overlap by 12 hours per week!

 

nonetheless, i understand exactly what your concerns are, as i too am responsible for making sure everything just 'works'.

 

i would be fairly confident that timetabler works, the only part i'm not sure of is, once the timetable is done and sent back to SIMS/sql. what do you do about modifications, additions? do you then go into NT6 or do you go back to Timetabler and then redo the export...? I don't think the maintenance process is going to be complicated but is also worth considering with all else. How do you deal with new teachers, teachers that leave or go on long term sick etc. I'm sure it's all been thought of, as loads of people out there use Timetabler.

[andykemp]

i would be fairly confident that timetabler works, the only part i'm not sure of is, once the timetable is done and sent back to SIMS/sql. what do you do about modifications, additions? do you then go into NT6 or do you go back to Timetabler and then redo the export...? I don't think the maintenance process is going to be complicated but is also worth considering with all else. How do you deal with new teachers, teachers that leave or go on long term sick etc. I'm sure it's all been thought of, as loads of people out there use Timetabler.

 

From what I have read, you go back to the timetable in Timetabler that was imported, make the changes here then export again chainging the timetable dates to start from when the timetable changes... The only complication here is that changes that were made in SIMS (rather than those that would normally be made in NovaT/Timetabler) will not be copied back and so must be updated in both. Whereas NovaT would make a maintanence timetable which could be adapted...

 

Apart from that the process looks to be the same...

[vikpaw]

I wondered about that, maintenance sets are hard to get your head around. I don't think there would be many if any changes that you need to make in SIMS, and then update to Nova, apart from adding rooms/teachers/subjects etc. that's not a biggie.

We don't use maintenance sets just send back from a new date usually, and never update Nova, just take the old file, make changes into a new file and then send back again.