Any schools actually have a generator?

[PotNoodleTech]

Just wondering. I was doing some back of a fag packet maths and actually, we spend quite a lot on UPS etc in order to try and sustain 1 hour uptime in the event of a failure and I've doubled up on UPS incase of hardware failure / power cuts on a single phase which has happened before. Then I've got new batteries that will be needed in a couple of years etc.

 

Looking at it, on my next refresh it could be no more expensive to scale the UPS solution right down (single UPS, only 15-20 mins runtime) and actually get a decent entry level diesel generator from the likes of Hyundai and an automatic transfer switch whish would give 24 hours of runtime on the generator.

 

I'm not talking about spending bucketloads on a big yellow beastly CAT generator but just £2000 buys you a nice 6 - 10KW generator with pure sine wave output which would run my server room including air con for 24 hours. It looks...promising!!

[FN-GM]

One of our schools do yes. The server room was to be used to host equipment for the whole LA under a BSF managed service. The generator was part of that. The managed service never happened and the school inherited the room back with the generator. At the time it could run 24 hours without needing more fuel. Now the equipment is more efficient and less of it its more like 48 hours. It powers the servers, lights in the server room and the air con in there. You will still need a UPS to support the room whilst the generator engine starts.

 

A few years ago we have various power issues in the area and it was very useful.

[Arthur]

You will still need a UPS to support the room whilst the generator engine starts.

It's a shame Tesla's PowerWall (or the cheaper IKEA equivalent) don't have faster DC/AC inverters. If they did it would be possible to replace the generator *and* UPS.

[PotNoodleTech]

One of our schools do yes. The server room was to be used to host equipment for the whole LA under a BSF managed service. The generator was part of that. The managed service never happened and the school inherited the room back with the generator. At the time it could run 24 hours without needing more fuel. Now the equipment is more efficient and less of it its more like 48 hours. It powers the servers, lights in the server room and the air con in there. You will still need a UPS to support the room whilst the generator engine starts.

 

A few years ago we have various power issues in the area and it was very useful.

 

Yes a miniature version of that set up sounds exactly what I am thinking of. Thanks!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

It's a shame Tesla's PowerWall (or the cheaper IKEA equivalent) don't have faster DC/AC inverters. If they did it would be possible to replace the generator *and* UPS.

 

Problem is you're going way past the £2000 I was talking about for a generator with power walls etc!

[matt40k]

Not sure it would be that simple, I think you'll run into problems when the generators kick in and have a power spike. Also, what about the other end? It's pretty pointless having servers up that no-one can connect to. Personally wouldn't it make sense to have some servers either running in Azure or ready to spin up then just have UPS locally that make sure the servers shutdown gracefully.

[Vegas]

Yep we have a Kipur KDE19 57A, 14KVA 3-phase diesel.

[TechMonkey]

We have a generator hook up point, but not a generator on site.

 

Look at it another way, what do you need to achieve and what is the school needing? Why do you need 1 hour uptime?

 

Our plan is, we have 30-40 minutes on our UPS covering hosts, SAN and core switch. In the event of a power out we wait 5 minutes to see if everything comes back on, then shut down non-essential servers and wait another 15 minutes, if no update we shut down servers in priority order until only the DCs are running, if still no update and the batteries are low we shut it all down. If the power is out across the site then all we are trying to do is minimise the time it takes to get back up and running. Any "work" that is needed to be done is carried out on a laptop tethered to a mobile phone or someone goes home and communication is setup to pass requests and data back and forth.

 

If the power outage is going to be a long one the energy company has to supply a generator anyway and until that happens the pupils will be sent home or occupied until parents can come and get them. We have no life critical systems on site, we are moving most of our data to the cloud so it is accessible even with a power outage.

 

So the question is, why are you trying to prolong your servers for 24 hours when you could just protect them from being badly shutdown, save the school money and yourself hassle.

 

Don't forget with a generator you are recommended to run a full test regularly, monthly or quarterly in most cases, and this is where companies become unstuck, they think they have this great backup plan and it doesn't work as the generator malfunctions as it hasn't been started in years. You also have to rotate the fuel as if it sits for too long it will deteriorate and that isn't good for the generator. If you are relying on the generator does it then need a servicing contract or high availability maintenance contract? So in fact you would be adding cost and complexity?

 

Just things to think about.

[Rob_D]

Not sure it would be that simple, I think you'll run into problems when the generators kick in and have a power spike. Also, what about the other end? It's pretty pointless having servers up that no-one can connect to. Personally wouldn't it make sense to have some servers either running in Azure or ready to spin up then just have UPS locally that make sure the servers shutdown gracefully.

 

I would agree. For us the whole point of a UPS is to keep the servers going for 20-30 minutes while they shut down cleanly. And to protect against surges, brownouts, some numpty flicking the wrong switch, etc.

 

We do have a generator onsite. But it's really only for the Sports Hall lighting, as getting 300+ students out of a pitch dark room after the power went out during an exam wasn't fun.

 

Generators need servicing, maintenance, running up 6 months or so. So don't forget to factor that into your costs.

[MatthewL]

Before I left the NHS a few years ago I spoke to Borri at Sheffield and spec'd up a nice little generator and UPS solution just to power our small data centre following some power issues over a Christmas period. It wasn't a major data centre as we had another that was on a hospital site connected to generators. Anyway I left and later found what I had spec'd was installed but had enough juice to power the building for some 3 days (fairly sizeable office building) and some more. What what is could do I think it came in around 50k with the UPS room, works and cabling which I didn't think was too bad.

 

Never did get to see it in operation but can recommend Borri, obviously can get a smaller solution for cheaper and it was maybe 7 or 8 years ago but certainly worth looking at.

[dhicks]

Looking at it, on my next refresh it could be no more expensive to scale the UPS solution right down (single UPS, only 15-20 mins runtime) and actually get a decent entry level diesel generator from the likes of Hyundai and an automatic transfer switch whish would give 24 hours of runtime on the generator.

 

If the power goes out for an extended period of time, what is the expected status of your school? If you're in a rural area, with power out in the wider area, is the school expected to stay open to provide accomodation / hot meals? What is your Internet connectivity like - can you have services off in the cloud rather than in an on-site datacentre, leaving power issues to Amazon / Microsoft or whoever?

 

We looked in to getting a generator, but decided against it in the end. We're located in central London, and have a dedicated fibre connection, so as long as we can keep the Internet / internal network connection up we should be able to connect to vital services. We have a decent UPS connected to a separate power circuit that powers the server cupboard, some of the switch cabinets around the school and some of the front desk / office workstations. With no mains power, we should still be able to keep a minimal network (including the phones) up for serveral hours, enough for us to sort out contacting parents and so on. The separate 240V circuit run from the UPS to various locations (over several floors) turned out to be a pretty reasonable price in the end, and we have special red-coloured sockets labelled "computers only" to try and stop people plugging in heaters.

 

From all accounts, having auto-failover power provision is tricky to get working properly. Even large providors have issues - OVH had an outage a few months back caused by power issues, even though they had generators in place and tested them every month. It turns out that the way power drops during testing (someone hits a large red switch and the power cuts out) doesn't match a real outage (the power drops a bit, then goes back up for a bit, then drops again...), which causes the generators to switch to "safe" mode and not turn on for fear of blowing valuable equipment. Amazon override this feature by buying a generator company and re-writing their control firmware, but then they can afford to loose a few millions worth of equipment if it keeps their systems up.

[southhamster]

If the power goes out for an extended period of time, what is the expected status of your school? If you're in a rural area, with power out in the wider area, is the school expected to stay open to provide accomodation / hot meals? What is your Internet connectivity like - can you have services off in the cloud rather than in an on-site datacentre, leaving power issues to Amazon / Microsoft or whoever?

 

We looked in to getting a generator, but decided against it in the end. We're located in central London, and have a dedicated fibre connection, so as long as we can keep the Internet / internal network connection up we should be able to connect to vital services. We have a decent UPS connected to a separate power circuit that powers the server cupboard, some of the switch cabinets around the school and some of the front desk / office workstations. With no mains power, we should still be able to keep a minimal network (including the phones) up for serveral hours, enough for us to sort out contacting parents and so on. The separate 240V circuit run from the UPS to various locations (over several floors) turned out to be a pretty reasonable price in the end, and we have special red-coloured sockets labelled "computers only" to try and stop people plugging in heaters.

 

From all accounts, having auto-failover power provision is tricky to get working properly. Even large providors have issues - OVH had an outage a few months back caused by power issues, even though they had generators in place and tested them every month. It turns out that the way power drops during testing (someone hits a large red switch and the power cuts out) doesn't match a real outage (the power drops a bit, then goes back up for a bit, then drops again...), which causes the generators to switch to "safe" mode and not turn on for fear of blowing valuable equipment. Amazon override this feature by buying a generator company and re-writing their control firmware, but then they can afford to loose a few millions worth of equipment if it keeps their systems up.

Yes I agree. The law of sod seems to apply to backup generators so often. The Register has plenty of tales covering all kinds of failures from birds nesting in air intakes to fuel being stolen via builders doing all kinds of daftness.

I used to work for a uni. and even with all kinds of multiple systems the UPS usually worked, the generators less so.

SMA who make serious solar PV kit have a product called Sunny Island that will integrate renewables and generators but it just looks too expensive for normal use in a school. Just buy a bigger UPS.