Is Gender Personal Information?

[enjay]

After all, we don't ask what your 'racial identity' is, do we? Or any other biological characteristic? We don't have transrace people.

 

Wasn't there something a few years back with a black rights campaigner who was involved in a scandal when it turned out they were white? They said they identified themselves as black. Obviously white people can be black rights campaigners too, but there was something about her or the group she represented which made this note-worthy. I'm sure there's a documentary about it on TV this week.

 

Also, I think racial identity can be an issue for people from a background which has a clearly defined identity, and also people who have moved countries. I know a number of people who became far more patriotic for their homeland after they emigrated!

 

Also also, asking questions about someone's race is deemed inappropriate/politically-incorrect but at this moment in time, asking about someone's sex is not.

[DJ-1701]

But for the purpose of the FOI request when someone asks what sex is the headteacher I don't think they are literally asking what X or Y chromosome they are.

 

I depends entirely on what they are using the data for, it's not up to staff to interpret badly phrased questions. As a past colleague once said to me, never assume, it makes an a$$ out of u and me.

 

But it's just accepted that we don't say this, we just say what is your sex.

 

Just because people say it, doesn't mean it is correct, nor natually understood by everyone that they mean something else.

[DJ-1701]

Wasn't there something a few years back with a black rights campaigner who was involved in a scandal when it turned out they were white? They said they identified themselves as black. Obviously white people can be black rights campaigners too, but there was something about her or the group she represented which made this note-worthy. I'm sure there's a documentary about it on TV this week.

 

I believe you are talking about Rachel Dolezal.

[Edutech98]

I depends entirely on what they are using the data for, it's not up to staff to interpret badly phrased questions. As a past colleague once said to me, never assume, it makes an a$$ out of u and me.

 

 

 

Just because people say it, doesn't mean it is correct, nor natually understood by everyone that they mean something else.

 

I'd just think you were being pedantic, at best, if you took that line. We don't need to dissect every word or line, sometimes its just Ok to accept that you know exactly what the person is talking about.

[Garacesh]

Your answering the FOI on behalf of your employer in a professional capacity, it's not interested in what do you identify as on a Saturday night at 10:30, what you are medically known as or what your children refer to you as. It's only interest is within the professional capacity and what you are known as or referred to as within your profession.

For the record, I actually agree with you - but only with the context of the Headteacher (or anyone else that legally has to be disclosed online)

 

Anyone that must be legally disclosed should be offered the choice of how they are disclosed, and therefore if Mr. Joe Bloggs would be happier identifying themselves as Miss Jane Bloggs, they should be given that choice. However, whichever they choose to identify themselves as should be their identity until they say otherwise, because that's what they've chosen. In an ideal world, Joe should be free to identify themselves as Jane and nobody bats an eye, but I'm sure there would be situations where they might feel they would be ridiculed by the students or seen as less of an authority by the staff or something, and therefore choose not to. But we humans have a tendency to muck stuff up when we're factored into the equation.

 

My point, much like yours, is that they are free to choose the identity they present, and as such if an FOI request requests information about that identity, a response should be given in accordance with that identity. If Joe Bloggs did put themselves as Miss Jane Bloggs online, I would expect "Headteacher's Gender" to be responded with "Female". So yes, the presented gender may very well be different from their actual gender, (psychologically speaking, and ignoring biology), but when you have to disclose an identity (accurate or otherwise) by law, your hands are kind of tied. Perhaps there's room to tweak the regulations for disclosing certain members of staff to accommodate this scenario better?

 

Wasn't there something a few years back with a black rights campaigner who was involved in a scandal when it turned out they were white? They said they identified themselves as black. Obviously white people can be black rights campaigners too, but there was something about her or the group she represented which made this note-worthy.

I vaguely recall something along those lines, yes. But that's a statistical outlier of incredibly rare frequency.

My point being people make such a fuss about gender identity (which can be understandable, given how much of a role gender plays in the average persons life) but there isn't often any kind of dysphoria or disassociation with other biological factors.

Now perhaps that's a sign that we as a society aren't as fussy about race as we are sex/gender, and since people don't feel so much of a pressure about their race they are less likely to notice a similar psychological dissonance between any other biological/psychological traits. So maybe it does happen, but people don't notice. Or maybe we just put so much focus on gender that people feel that something is 'wrong', or 'different' when things don't marry up as perfectly as perhaps society thinks they 'should', and maybe if we stopped putting so much focus on gender in the first place, there'd be less of an issue, because people wouldn't feel the need to box themselves into 'male' or 'female' genders and we'd all be more comfortable as a society with things being a bit more loose and fluid.. Food for thought.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Garacesh

[Edutech98]

Was she not in charge of promoting black people in the work place, and the irony was why was a black person not interviewed for the job role.

 

I'm happy with any question* being answered, providing its in the right context. So if you were researching if female head teachers were paid less than male head teachers then I think its fine to try to establish the sex of the head teacher. Same with ethnicity etc.

 

* When I say any question, I don't literally mean any question!

[enjay]

I'm happy with any question* being answered, providing its in the right context. So if you were researching if female head teachers were paid less than male head teachers then I think its fine to try to establish the sex of the head teacher. Same with ethnicity etc.

 

So, in the context of the FOI request which started all this, it is probably okay (if perhaps a more politically-correct term could have been chosen), as I suspect part of Mr Maloney's research is to identify a link between gender ratios of the staff and how separated families are treated. Marital status of the staff is possibly more of a factor in that, but you'd never be able to ask that!

[DJ-1701]

I'd just think you were being pedantic, at best, if you took that line. We don't need to dissect every word or line, sometimes its just Ok to accept that you know exactly what the person is talking about.

 

Me? I'm always a little bit Pedantic, a little bit Devils advocate... mostly just a pain... but anyway I'm not specifically talking about this recent one that we have been discussing in the other topic, but FOI in general. How do you know, you can only go by the information you are given and if that is nothing but questions, one can rightly assume they did mean sex and not gender... because that's what they asked for.

[Garacesh]

Me? I'm always a little bit Pedantic, a little bit Devils advocate... mostly just a pain...

Best way to be

Those that can question any position, or play devil's advocate, are more capable dialectical thinking, which I personally consider to be a favourable trait.

 

How do you know, you can only go by the information you are given and if that is nothing but questions, one can rightly assume they did mean sex and not gender... because that's what they asked for.

It's a fair point. I mean you have to accept that in any kind of communication (written, spoken, whatever) we're subconsciously analysing the content in contrast with the manner in which language is used.

Despite 'sex' and 'gender' being, scientifically speaking, two completely separate concepts, in common parlance they're the same thing, so even being aware of the distinction we would most likely unconsciously associate "the gender of the headteacher" to mean we were being asked about their biological sex, when that may not be accurate nor fair on the member of staff or the requester, or both, to assume.

 

That being said, I'm not going to be the guy that tries to verify it. If our headteacher says she's Jane Doe, I'm not going to ask her to prove it

 

If I were answering the question and we had a headteacher who was known to be transgender, my first inclination would be to respond with their assigned/accepted gender, not their biological one (More likely I'd ask them if that were OK first, but then again I have more dealings with trans people than the average person so I may not be the fairest example).

... Then again, if the head wasn't known to be transgender, I wouldn't know either, so the point is kinda moot.

[enjay]

If I were answering the question and we had a headteacher who was known to be transgender, my first inclination would be to respond with their assigned/accepted gender, not their biological one

 

I suspect if the HT were openly trans, they would probably given guidance to their staff about appropriate terminology so you'd already know what to put on the FOI request without asking.

[Garacesh]

I suspect if the HT were openly trans, they would probably given guidance to their staff about appropriate terminology so you'd already know what to put on the FOI request without asking.

 

Yeah, fair point.

Not that they should have to, in an ideal world, but eh. If my choices were "They call the shots so you know you're getting it right" or "You get it wrong and upset/offend/annoy them", I know which option I'd take.

[bmaloney]

The government collects data on the gender of staff: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/school-workforce-in-england-november-2015 and they don't have a "prefer not to say" option. The point is if you publish a picture of the headteacher on the website and it's obvious which gender they identify with from the picture and the title, why would you put "prefer not to say"? If you don't publish a picture, the name is ambiguous and you don't use a gendered title then by all means put "prefer not to say", but it's not private data if it's in the public domain.

 

It's the same with governors, they are performing a public function and they are responsible for the school, they can't hide behind anonymity, their names are in the public domain. When you take on the job, that's one of the requirements.

[pete]

Interestingly, we've just been having the "can we alter the gender lookups on SIMS to include options other than male/female?" discussion (you can't, AFAICT).

 

Mainly 'cos at some point we'll have someone with "dunno/undecided/etc" as an option on their joining docs and it'd be good to have a third option. This will of course cause the census to explode.

[bmaloney]

I've just received this in a response to my FOI:

What is the gender of your Headteacher? DIRECT THEM TO YOUR WEBSITE TO FIND THIS INFORMATION OUT Details at https://www.thevictoryacademy.org.uk/contact-us/

It's Ms Mandy Gage, so I assume that's female. But this is an example of the awkwardness of those responding, the response came from the PA to the Principal, who presumably knows what gender the Principal is as they work together!

[Katy]

I've just received this in a response to my FOI:

 

It's Ms Mandy Gage, so I assume that's female. But this is an example of the awkwardness of those responding, the response came from the PA to the Principal, who presumably knows what gender the Principal is as they work together!

 

While they are well within their rights to point you to the website for information which is already publicly available - pretty sure the one word response you were after would have been a lot quicker for them to type out than that!

[Edutech98]

The information that you've requested they have made publicly available and have directed you to the link. They've fulfilled their requirements but it's obvious to me that they have done so in an unprofessional way and they have been purposefully awkward.

 

Hopefully it is not a representation of how the school is actually managed.