Freedom of Information request

[enjay]

Your sample is a captive sample of people on this forum. This is not a sample of schools receiving an unsolicited email with a link.

 

Yes it is. We are all representatives of schools who received an unsolicited email with a link. That is how we came to be involved in this discussion.

 

I concede we are not the people who would have received your original email (which typically would have gone to office@) but we are the people who train them in what to click or ignore, and the people they ask "is it okay to click this link?"

[pubgrub277]

I was not making an FOI request merely testing the assertion , along with everyone else, that the website and address are a big part of peoples failure to respond.

 

As other people have said, your attitude at this point makes people disinclined to help. The validation you want could be setup within the google sheet the forms feed the data back to very easily. Responses can be sent if data is submitted inaccurately. Prefilled forms can be returned to the respondent for correction.

 

I think you'll find almost all FOI's will come from unsolicited emails, i don't know anyone actively seeking people to make request of them. thats why whatdotheyknow.com etc are around so people can add some sense of legitimacy to the request and not just try to ignore it.

 

I'm with most people on this, we would like to see you request carried out, but not at the expense of other peoples time and effort.

I would actually be interested in the analysis of this data, but would be terrified to spend any time working with you on it.

[LukeRowberry]

I think it's about time this was closed until you send your next non-compliant request. It started off as a good read but now it's just annoying.

[pubgrub277]

I bet you wish you'd asked us some more interesting questions now, could be quite a good read!

 

the cogs have been spinning.

[bmaloney]

Personally I'd write a script to run the validation that google forms can't do, and that script could also handle chasing schools for corrected answers. This isn't that difficult - if you can set up a website by yourself then you can certainly figure that out.

 

I did, my site does this. I looked at Google Forms, there's no easy way to cross check between fields.

[djrscally]

I did, my site does this. I looked at Google Forms, there's no easy way to cross check between fields.

 

I know, you'll need to do that part externally. You can use bash or something to grab the spreadsheet nightly, and validate any new responses.

[bmaloney]

The idea of a pick list for Qu 1 & 6 doesn't really work with FOI requests in this instance. What you are asking for is a judgement or interpretation of a ‘woolly’ school policy document. What you should be asking for is the document itself, as that and its contents are subject to the FOI and not the schools opinion as to whether the policy covers e.g. “information sharing” in your request.

Do you have time to read multiple policies from 20,000 schools? I don't which is why I didn't ask for copies. If they were all to send me copies of policies by email, how much data would my inbox need to cope with? I had one letter in reply which was 14MB. Not a policy, but a 2 page letter. 20000*14MB is 280GB. My inbox is not that large.

I have explained repeatedly my reasons for the approach I chose. Given the number of schools involved it is not possible for such a project to be conducted by free form correspondence, there has to be some structure. It has to be automated, it has to be electronic, not paper based, it must be possible to uniquely identify each respondent as many schools share the same name. Basic checks on the consistency of the responses is prudent to ensure schools don't just input nonsense.

 

Google Forms runs into the same issue of schools not being required to click on a link in an email. If you want to prove to me that would work, be my guest, I'll give you a random sample of schools and you can see how many you can get to respond. Don't expect me to believe that because the people on here respond that any unsuspecting school will do the same.

 

You are allowed to send an Excel or Word template and ask for that format to be used. It is not appropriate for the school to then respond in PDF or with a paper copy if you've requested an electronic format.

[pubgrub277]

I did, my site does this. I looked at Google Forms, there's no easy way to cross check between fields.

 

 

I think the live form may not support the style of validation you've used previously. Autoresponse are an easy option though.

 

https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/97848/can-google-forms-send-emails-automatically

 

This example could be updated, to include and if statement to only send when the sum of the columns does not match as per you webform.

 

There would also be the option to return the url of the prefilled form already completed so the user can amend the details but not refill the whole request.

[djrscally]

Google Forms runs into the same issue of schools not being required to click on a link in an email. If you want to prove to me that would work, be my guest, I'll give you a random sample of schools and you can see how many you can get to respond. Don't expect me to believe that because the people on here respond that any unsuspecting school will do the same.

 

Bah. OK I'm done trying to help you now. If you're gonna just roll with the PDF forms idea because "Google Forms is as trustworthy as my site so nobody will use that either" when that's blatantly not the case then good luck, have fun.

 

EDIT: Google sheets supports scripting!? You could literally do all the validation in there.

Edited April 19, 2018 by djrscally

[LukeRowberry]

I think at this point your best bet is to go with the PDF idea. You can then wait a while, go through the whole failed tribunal again and then come back here and moan at how unfair the world is. Talking about an unfair world, how about the imbalance of parental details held by schools crazy stuff that!!

[pubgrub277]

At this point i'm actually interested in how many response i can get from a list of local schools i have.

 

I'm using a personal account and am sending a link to the following form. May post and update if i get any responses.

 

[enjay]

Google Forms runs into the same issue of schools not being required to click on a link in an email.

 

Seriously? Still??

 

Actually, here's a thought which I think you're going to like. The ICO's objection to your link was that you hid it behind a button so if you put the link in plain text, I'm thinking the ICO will be okay with that. So send out a new FOI request with a link to a Google Form, and this will have one of two outcomes: schools will either respond to the valid request or incorrectly refuse. So, you would get lots of data for your cause (and I am 100% certain it would be enough to support your case) AND you would get some schools to argue with, confident you had the ICO's support. That has got to be a win for you.

[DrCheese]

What a nonsense thread - If schools are responding to the FOI request in a format that is acceptable under the law then that's just tough really - Wanting schools to submit data in a certain way to make the requester's life easier is a "nice to have" and not a "Must do" It's not really the individual schools problem if you can't or don't have the time to collate the data from thousands of schools after - That's why if it really matters, you hire someone or ask for volunteers. All of which are nothing to do with the school Edited April 19, 2018 by DrCheese

[Banjo]

Do you have time to read multiple policies from 20,000 schools? I don't which is why I didn't ask for copies. If they were all to send me copies of policies by email, how much data would my inbox need to cope with? I had one letter in reply which was 14MB. Not a policy, but a 2 page letter. 20000*14MB is 280GB. My inbox is not that large.

I have explained repeatedly my reasons for the approach I chose. Given the number of schools involved it is not possible for such a project to be conducted by free form correspondence, there has to be some structure. It has to be automated, it has to be electronic, not paper based, it must be possible to uniquely identify each respondent as many schools share the same name. Basic checks on the consistency of the responses is prudent to ensure schools don't just input nonsense.

 

Google Forms runs into the same issue of schools not being required to click on a link in an email. If you want to prove to me that would work, be my guest, I'll give you a random sample of schools and you can see how many you can get to respond. Don't expect me to believe that because the people on here respond that any unsuspecting school will do the same.

 

You are allowed to send an Excel or Word template and ask for that format to be used. It is not appropriate for the school to then respond in PDF or with a paper copy if you've requested an electronic format.

 

The school can send you back the policy wording as text. If you ask for 20,000 schools responses then it’s you problem to sort the data out not theirs.

 

A simple example of what is wrong with your current approach to data collection. Let’s say the schools policy is a simple one line statement

 

“We will endeavour to treat all parents and carers equally in all matters relating to their children’s education”

 

• Letters Home (Pupil Post) and emails are sent to both parents
  
• Provision for both parents to attend parents evening separately if requested
  
• Consent for school trips
  
• Consent for Medical Treatment
  
• Requests to change a child's surname
  
• Involvement in meetings about a child's exclusion etc.
  
• Information Sharing
  
• Parent Governor Elections
  
• Requirement for a court order to accompany any request to restrict another parent's PR
  
• Other areas
  

 

A FOI request can only obtain the written down policy statement “We will endeavour to treat all parents and carers equally in all matters relating to their children’s education”. What you are asking for is for the school to interpret their own policy and try to best fit that into your pick list (above). This isn't how FOI requests work - sorry.

 

Some schools may complete the form, but it will likely be based upon the schools own processes (how they treat parents) rather than their school policy. Other will tick every box because their policy says "treat all parents and carers equally" even if in practice they don't.

 

There is an old saying "garbage in - garbage out"

 

>You can ask for any proprietary format you like from the respondent - they just don't have to give it you.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Banjo

[DrCheese]

The school can send you back the policy wording as text. If you ask for 20,000 schools responses then it’s you problem to sort the data out not theirs.

 

Pretty much. Why should they care at all how the requester deals with the data after? Answer: They shouldn't. Oh dear it takes time to process the data, again not the schools problem. We've met the letter of the law

[Bedders]

Irrespective of what we say on here, the reason for the refused appeal was the lack of a correspondence address. The concerns of clicking on a link, whilst interesting and likely a worthwhile debate for us here on EduGeek, is neither here nor there for this FOI request.

 

Section 8(1)(b) reads “In this Act any reference to a “request for information” is a reference to a request which.

. . .

(b) states the name of the applicant and an address for correspondence.

 

14. The Tribunal finds that this appeal falls at the first hurdle.

 

We provided ideas of what schools, or in our opinion - our schools, would likely approve of in order to help you @bmaloney. Instead you seem to be arguing for the sake of it, and unfortunately others are circling arguments.

 

Suggest /thread closed.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Bedders
spelling

[bmaloney]

Irrespective of what we say on here, the reason for the refused appeal was the lack of a correspondence address. The concerns of clicking on a link, whilst interesting and likely a worthwhile debate for us here on EduGeek, is neither here nor there for this FOI request.

 

Sorry but your assertion is wrong. If it were as easy as adding a correspondence address and then the schools would click on a link in an email I would have done that by now. Remember I have seen all the papers, made the arguments and I was at the appeal hearing.

[Ditto]

Suggest /thread closed.

I was pondering this. I'm all for a purposeful debate and I have the personal option to opt out I guess, but there's a small bit of me that wants to stick around to see if there is a point where the light comes on, but I fear it never will. I'm not really one for what feels like censorship, but perhaps the vote needs to be called upon. It would certainly reduce the load on a number of inboxes. @elsiegee40 - what do you think?

[elsiegee40]

 

As last time, I will only close the thread by popular vote. It is not our policy to close threads generally, but if members indicate on the thread or by PM or report that this is what they want then we will do it. Equally, if you have a strong view that it should be left open then please make sure that we know your reasons.

 

[sparkeh]

Close thread; the suggestions have been made and the advice given but lack of listening/acceptance means we are locked in a spiral and nothing useful will occur from this point.

[fiza]

Agreed. Just going round in circles now. Close thread.

[DrCheese]

Close the thread - Someone *clearly* has too much time on their hands & enjoys the attention caused by submitting billions of FOI requests (Not just to schools) - Then being awkward about the way they are responded to (legally.) Edited April 19, 2018 by DrCheese

[Steve21]

As above, obviously has no intention to try to do it properly and only causing more time and money to be wasted with additional "issues"

 

There have been so many options and advice given and not one bit is being listened to

[elsiegee40]

 

The votes in my inbox this morning and those by report and in this thread were all in favour of thread closure.

 

I hereby declare it closed.

 

I’m sure this won’t be the last discussion about a particular FoI request on EduGeek.

 

For the record, the request in the opening post resulted in the following ICO decision

https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/decision-notices/2017/2014794/fs50673169.pdf

 

The ICO’s decision was appealed and the tribunal dismissed the appeal thus upholding the ICO’s decision. The tribunal decision is here.

http://informationrights.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/DBFiles/Decision/i2168/020%20260318%20Decision.pdf

 

Until the next time.... [emoji849]

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by elsiegee40

[elsiegee40]

 

If someone happened to call the ICO to see if the same ruling would apply to schools refusing to open pdf attachments, I would be willing to reopen this for them to post.

 

It would enable schools to emphasise to their staff that attachments sent from unknown email addresses should not be opened and links to unknown websites should not be clicked on even if they claim to be a FoI request.

 

Volunteers?

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by elsiegee40