Staff Workforce Census without SIMS

[localzuk]

So, we are looking at moving away from FMS for our MAT finance system, and something that's come up is if we move the HR side over too, how do we do the Staff Workforce Census.

 

I've been told by 2 people now that the EFA states that "only SIMS can do it", which is obviously not true, as there are thousands of schools that simply don't use SIMS now.

 

So, how do those of you without SIMS do your staff workforce census?

[Banjo]

With SIMS ?!

 

Routines | Stat Returns | SWC

Edited December 12, 2016 by Banjo

[bobsmith]

Well our local authority merge their records with our records (from the SIMS SWF xml output) then upload it to collect.

 

Ultimately if you've got the xml you can upload to COLLECT, or give it to your local authority (If you're in a MAT I imagine that each academy will have to do their own straight into COLLECT?)

 

So in short there are many ways to skin this cat. Presumably as long as you know the xml format you can do this all with some nice excel macros.

[localzuk]

With SIMS ?!

 

Routines | Stat Returns | SWC

 

Might want to re-read the original post there...

[localzuk]

Bumping as I posted late in the day yesterday.

[Banjo]

Might want to re-read the original post there...

 

Your not using FMS in the future is what you said. You don't need FMS to do the SWF return. You will still need staff records in SIMS and you will need the timetable/curriculum element for the return out of an MIS.

[localzuk]

Your not using FMS in the future is what you said. You don't need FMS to do the SWF return. You will still need staff records in SIMS and you will need the timetable/curriculum element for the return out of an MIS.

Yes, but we may also be moving the HR stuff to a different system also, that's my point. I specifically asked about doing it without SIMS.

 

The idea being that in the future, finance stuff is entirely separate to our SIMS systems, as at the moment it will lead to duplication of data as each school will have to maintain staffing data in SIMS, and then our finance/HR will have to maintain it again in the finance system.

 

So, my question remains - what do schools do if they don't use SIMS for the return.

[Ephelyon]

I'd ring up a few MIS providers and ask how they do it.

 

We're thinking about moving to Bromcom. They have a module - e-Census - that specifically takes care of these things. They also have an e-Finance module to replace FMS, and an e-Timetable module to replace Nova-T. Interestingly, you can continue to use both FMS and Nova-T and import into Bromcom, and then move over to their own modules when you feel ready. Either way, e-Census will take care of the statutory requirements.

 

I've had the same rumblings from my SLT about changing MIS: "... but we know SIMS will do what we need."

 

*Ahem* NEWSFLASH, SLT!!! SIMS, CMIS, PARS, Progresso, E1, Arbor, iSAMS, DoubleFirst Engage, Bromcom... etc... they are all being sold into schools and all schools have similar statutory requirements. They will all "do what we need"... the question is how well and how cheaply!

[PhilNeal]

Most schools rely on their MIS to do this return although some LAs do have the data and complete it on behalf of schools.

I am aware that Capita's HR solution which is based on Northgate does do the SWC you are talking a different price bracket though!

[matt40k]

Finance and HR are two separate things @localzuk. SWF comes from your HR system and if your new MAT HR system doesn't do SWF then that a pretty major fail. I do know some helpful folks who might be able to help...

[localzuk]

Finance and HR are two separate things @localzuk. SWF comes from your HR system and if your new MAT HR system doesn't do SWF then that a pretty major fail. I do know some helpful folks who might be able to help...

They are, yes, but they are very much intertwined. Updates to HR should affect finance, budget forecasts etc...

 

As a MAT we have not actually bought a "new" HR system. That's the point - we are investigating this stuff now, and want to get it right, so that we don't have to enter data twice anywhere.

[elsiegee40]

So, we are looking at moving away from FMS for our MAT finance system, and something that's come up is if we move the HR side over too, how do we do the Staff Workforce Census.

 

I've been told by 2 people now that the EFA states that "only SIMS can do it", which is obviously not true, as there are thousands of schools that simply don't use SIMS now.

 

So, how do those of you without SIMS do your staff workforce census?

 

What are you using for your student MIS? Doesn't that do HR as well? Most do.

 

We had a Schoolbase (prep school) for all our student and HR records

 

Taking the staff out of the student MIS would make timetabling difficult. Staff also needed to be part of the student MIS to get everything else like taking registers, writing reports, etc.

 

Payroll was done separately using Sage.

[localzuk]

What are you using for your student MIS? Doesn't that do HR as well? Most do.

 

6 different copies of SIMS, across 6 schools.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that we currently have massive duplication of work, and we want to reduce it.

Taking the staff out of the student MIS would make timetabling difficult. Staff also needed to be part of the student MIS to get everything else like taking registers, writing reports, etc.

 

You can have the basic details - name, what they teach etc... That doesn't mean you have to have all HR info in there.

[elsiegee40]

Ah, I see. We have SIMS in 3 schools at my governor trust. As far as I'm aware HR is being done on the copy of SIMS at the school where central HR lives.

 

HR remotes in when they're at one of the other schools. Not ideal, but don't have the bandwidth or the budget to go cloud.

[matt40k]

I believe @salamanderSoft was doing integration between a payroll\HR system and the MIS. So provisions staff in SIMS etc when they appear on the payroll - which is the important one (folks don't work for free after all!!). Like @Banjo and @elsiegee40 you'll need it in your MIS regardless how you do it. If you can't push it in, it might be worth pull it out from your MIS the slapping it into payroll \ HR. Still like @Ephelyon has said, if you're looking at replacing your Finance system, you might as well look at your MIS - especially as SIMS, as you know, is a pig to interface with. It's alright say you could write something, but it just takes one simple mistake and your in a world of pain (just ask Serco about that!). Realistic, you might just have to except the data duplication\manual bits as a fact of life as the cost would be too prohibit with your limitation.

@PhilNeal - do you know any LA that have ONE + B2B personnel that have interlinked it with their backend payroll?

[PhilNeal]

Most LAs have moved away from One Personnel so no. However 1600 schools interface SIMS Personnel to Capita payroll.

[CAM]

6 different copies of SIMS, across 6 schools.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that we currently have massive duplication of work, and we want to reduce it.

 

 

You can have the basic details - name, what they teach etc... That doesn't mean you have to have all HR info in there.

 

You still need to put contracts and service agreements in there for Cover to work properly.

[bobsmith]

but only the dates would need to be accurate?

[localzuk]

You still need to put contracts and service agreements in there for Cover to work properly.

Only if we use Cover.

[Banjo]

Only if we use Cover.

 

So is this a primary school MAT without timetables and cover? That would make it much easier to match data from the curriculum element of the SWR to the HR staff details side. This could probably all be done in a central HR system, our LA does this for primary schools without the need to trouble them for much.

 

Alternatively;

 

A secondary school with SIMS that doesn't use the cover module? You must be looking for a pretty snazzy HR system to be able to replicate this functionality unless you plan on ditching the lot and moving to a paper based system. I think you have more chance of finding that elusive crock of gold than something that you appear to have in mind.

[Bromcom_John]

In the interests of agnostic information.

If you want to make sure that your MIS provider (or whomever you wish to use to deliver the SWF) make sure that they are "intimately" familiar with the documentation published by the DfE here.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-workforce-census-2016-business-and-technical-specification

 

That is the full and entire scope of what is required to be returned in the workforce census (it does update so check regularly), from the detail of the most part time admin to the senior leadership member still recorded on a post 2014 leadership payscale.

If it isn't in that document you don't need it for the Workforce census.

[Ecclesbury]

Do the DfE still make a SWC XML converter publicly available?

 

We have very much the same issue that you describe a few years ago and I got hold of the XML converter and sent it to our HR provider. These days our HR provider sends us a copy of this XML converter with all of the HR data added. I then have to manually merge in the curriculum, vacancies and casual staff info. The time it takes to do this is FAR less than the double entry required to keep SIMS and the HR database up to date.

 

However, I just tried to find the XML converter and I only seem to be able to find the 2014 one. Are these only provided on request?