Moved from sims but can we still have access on machine for historical data licence

[mlunn82]

Afternoon, question regarding licencing and access to sims historical data on 1 machine.

 

We have Moved from sim but every now and then have to use to check historical data. We would still like to have access on 1 machine for historical data. Our sims hasn't been upgraded or used but just had a email about paying for a the licence. The price seems very high and seemed like a site licence.

 

What licence would we need as not worried about updates or anything just to have access for historical data.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

[bobsmith]

learn some basic SQL and dump SIMS itself.

 

Alternatively extract all the data you're gonna need and dump the lot.

[round2it]

i would expect the new company to migrate all essential historical data for you as part of the package, that's what I would have asked for.

[mlunn82]

The data is all there but is a bit different to find it. We have came across some little differences a the beginning that have occurred in the past which is why to school is reluctant to just cut it off completely. This is why i was asking about the licencing of it. Seeing if they do a single licence or anything to get historical data. I can dump the data into sql and i can use that but it is for the sbm to use which would make it hard to get the info without sims.

[matt40k]

You own the SIMS license, it is a site license. The software is "yours". You pay maintenance for upgrades and support. If you don't want support or upgrades then don't pay for maintenance (which sounds like what your after).

 

If you've become an Academy then you have to re-license as the license is owned by the Local Authority. If you become an Academy and you don't go with SIMS (so don't re-license), then your Local Authority who does have a license could give you something - without maintenance and no Capita fees. How they do that is up to them. Personally I'd go for you provide a machine, LA provides software - nothing in the Capita license about ownership of the device and limitations. Ideally build a Windows VM for it as the time will come when you need to upgrade the hardware and its easier to move a VM to new hardware then it is a physical machine when you have no support\updates.

 

Bottom line, no Capita charges for historic access.

[mlunn82]

Hi Matt40k,

 

The price the LA are asking for the sims license is a lot which is why i was asking. Would you know if it Is it a one of fee or a yearly fee that we would have to pay? They have asked us to renew our sims licence again this year and we said we don't use sims any more just for historic data if we need to but said we still have to pay this fee?

[matt40k]

Stupid question, they know you've moved to another MIS? Worth asking them to confirm what its for. My gut would be to not pay it, you don't need to pay to access historic data.

[vikpaw]

Uniquely, the license for a school was perpetual, so drop annual maintenance and you still own / keep your old version with data.

 

Not sure if the LA license works the same way though. It should, but I vaguely remember people saying they had to pay towards the LA 'license' which usually included AM, but they might have been mis-using the term license.

 

When we left we just dropped all SIMS module charges and only continued with FMS.

 

To be honest most pertinent data was moved across. The only stuff that would really be needed was the uploaded documents, but Salamander software have a tool to rip all those out and file by pupil ID. Also old attendance data can be useful, but it's possible to archive out summary data for quick access.

 

Which MIS have you moved to? Most should offer pulling in historic data.

[elsiegee40]

Interesting question this as it came up in other thread. With data retention requirements now stretching to decades in some cases, historical access to old MIS records is going to become a big issue.

[mlunn82]

Thanks for the info. The data should all be there it was just at he start there was a few issue and differences which seem to be sorted now. Its also just some of the HR stuff that the sbm just likes to double check things against the old system for peace of mind due to a few issues. IT would just be nice to be able to keep the old system for historic data on one machine. We havn't had sims upgrades or anything done to it for over a year now so it is just for historic data.

 

Uniquely, the license for a school was perpetual, so drop annual maintenance and you still own / keep your old version with data.

 

Not sure if the LA license works the same way though. It should, but I vaguely remember people saying they had to pay towards the LA 'license' which usually included AM, but they might have been mis-using the term license.

 

When we left we just dropped all SIMS module charges and only continued with FMS.

 

To be honest most pertinent data was moved across. The only stuff that would really be needed was the uploaded documents, but Salamander software have a tool to rip all those out and file by pupil ID. Also old attendance data can be useful, but it's possible to archive out summary data for quick access.

 

Which MIS have you moved to? Most should offer pulling in historic data.

[PhilNeal]

The licence is perpetual there is no requirement to pay anything to us if you are happy to remain on your existing copy of SIMS.

[mlunn82]

Hi Phil, Thank you for the info. Is there anything in writing from capita or anything in black and white that i can show the SBM and then we can go back to our LA with this info?

 

 

The licence is perpetual there is no requirement to pay anything to us if you are happy to remain on your existing copy of SIMS.

[Banjo]

If your a maintained schools then the LA would still own the licence . The LA could in theory use your 'old' licence to convert another school from another MIS back to SIMS now you are not using it. My understanding was it was only perpetual if you owned the licence, which by the sounds of it, you never have.

[matt40k]

@Banjo - It'll be unwise for an LA to restrict a school access to data because they want to save a few pounds reusing an old license. It's not just a question of the LA looking up the data for them, its all the legal stuff that's wrapped around it - like verify that person is authorised to see and isn't just Joe Public and responding within the correct time frame. It'll just take 1 failure to annihilate that licensing saving.

 

If the managing director at Capita SIMS has publicly said there is "no requirement to pay anything to us", I wouldn't be paying a penny for something that isn't going to be used.

[Banjo]

@Banjo - It'll be unwise for an LA to restrict a school access to data because they want to save a few pounds reusing an old license. It's not just a question of the LA looking up the data for them, its all the legal stuff that's wrapped around it - like verify that person is authorised to see and isn't just Joe Public and responding within the correct time frame. It'll just take 1 failure to annihilate that licensing saving.

 

If the managing director at Capita SIMS has publicly said there is "no requirement to pay anything to us", I wouldn't be paying a penny for something that isn't going to be used.

 

I've done this. A school has become an academy, I've then used this 'free' licence on a school moving back to Sims. The school moving back to Sims just needs to pay annual maintenance as the licence they will be using is fully topped up. I'm just pointing out in this circumstance, where a school is moving away from Sims and only every paid annual maintenance, the LA may not be able to hold a spare Sims licence for them indefinitely. I know there are different licencing models, but I would get clarification from Phil Neal on this set of circumstances. If Phil says its Ok then fine.

[mlunn82]

Thanks for all your info and help. Have sent Phil's reply to the LA to see what they say. We would have paid it and not thought about asking on here, but it was a lot the LA was asking for just so we could look at historic data

[PhilNeal]

I've realised that if you are operating under an LA licence they have the rights and could deploy to another school.

[vikpaw]

I've realised that if you are operating under an LA licence they have the rights and could deploy to another school.

I had a suspicion that LAs would operate differently.

So it comes down to how much it costs the LA to have a license and what they would charge a school to keep that going.

It shouldn't really be an option to re-use a license as there is an onus on the school to retain the data and on the LA to inform them that they should.

Keeping the system but remaining unlicensed would be a dangerous grey area.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a specific exit license so schools can buy themselves out of the LA deal and maintain their archive, but it probably won't be cheap. Oh dear, this sounds like the relicense to become an academy scenario.

[Banjo]

I had a suspicion that LAs would operate differently.

So it comes down to how much it costs the LA to have a license and what they would charge a school to keep that going.

It shouldn't really be an option to re-use a license as there is an onus on the school to retain the data and on the LA to inform them that they should.

Keeping the system but remaining unlicensed would be a dangerous grey area.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a specific exit license so schools can buy themselves out of the LA deal and maintain their archive, but it probably won't be cheap. Oh dear, this sounds like the relicense to become an academy scenario.

 

The licences the LA's have purchased are treated as 'assets'. If you can reuse them to save another school money in licencing costs then you why wouldn't you?

 

The onus is on the school to ensure that they are compliant with data retention regulations. To me, the issue the OP is experiencing is that the ongoing Sim licencing cost was overlooked and not factored into the procurement of the new MIS. If the school want's to keep 1 machine with Sims then they have to pay up or go to Capita and buy their own licence.

[matt40k]

I would be seeking legal advice if I was the LA in question. You can't reallocate the license to an Academy or a LA school outside of your LA, do they actually have a new school being built? Otherwise is a really nasty move. If they allocate it to an Academy, Capita will get a lot of refund requests. The license was original purchase for that particular school - schools are named on the Capita bill. The school has still stated they require it, so it would be theft - don't even go down the path of fully using it, some schools just use it for census! If they get away with selling it to them, then it'll be original price minus depreciation, so what, £1. This would then also open them up to their procurement practices - ie have they been re-tendering etc.

 

I really don't get why an LA would act like this? Its not going to achieve cost savings and its just going to back fire. I get its an arse if your a Capita house and schools move away, but you just write up your MIS requirements document, state it must meet all the standard stuff, then add on must interface with your central systems (ie B2B Open) - then add a clause that failure will result in a fine to cover manually loading the data etc. Every other MIS supplier whos worth more then 1p will then work with your back end - oddly because they want future business and schools don't like extra bills.

 

The "saving" wouldn't even cover the PR bill if they went to the newspapers, let alone any legal costs. Really seems a like stupid idea which hasn't been thought out and most likely completely back fire and cause alot of damage all for a few hundred quid.

[Banjo]

I would be seeking legal advice if I was the LA in question. You can't reallocate the license to an Academy or a LA school outside of your LA, do they actually have a new school being built? Otherwise is a really nasty move. If they allocate it to an Academy, Capita will get a lot of refund requests. The license was original purchase for that particular school - schools are named on the Capita bill. The school has still stated they require it, so it would be theft - don't even go down the path of fully using it, some schools just use it for census! If they get away with selling it to them, then it'll be original price minus depreciation, so what, £1. This would then also open them up to their procurement practices - ie have they been re-tendering etc.

 

I really don't get why an LA would act like this? Its not going to achieve cost savings and its just going to back fire. I get its an arse if your a Capita house and schools move away, but you just write up your MIS requirements document, state it must meet all the standard stuff, then add on must interface with your central systems (ie B2B Open) - then add a clause that failure will result in a fine to cover manually loading the data etc. Every other MIS supplier whos worth more then 1p will then work with your back end - oddly because they want future business and schools don't like extra bills.

 

The "saving" wouldn't even cover the PR bill if they went to the newspapers, let alone any legal costs. Really seems a like stupid idea which hasn't been thought out and most likely completely back fire and cause alot of damage all for a few hundred quid.

 

I think you have misunderstood the process. The LA can reuse the licence they have purchased on another maintained school within their LA. Schools are listed in the annual maintenance agreement with Capita, but that's annual maintenance and nothing to do with licencing. The LA has to hold enough Sims licences to cover all the schools listed in its annual maintenance agreement and these licences have to be fully topped up.

 

If the LA has 50 Sims licences and 1 school moved to another supplier then it will have 1 spare. Another school (maintained) wants to move to Sims from less say RM. The LA adds its name to the annual maintenance agreement and crosses off the other schools. This way, the new school wanting to use Sims is spared a big licencing bill and only has to pay AM from day 1.

 

If they were using a cloud based system do you think their current provider would allow them to access historic data for free, indefinitely, after they had moved to a new solution? I think your coming at this from a 'something for nothing' perspective which doesn't wash these day.

[matt40k]

I think your coming at this from a 'something for nothing' perspective which doesn't wash these day.

 

Irony.

 

Well lets hope it doesn't blow back in their face like I predict.