Legality of MP3`s

[Jamie_a]

I`m trying to get a definative answer of the legality of storing mp3`s and video files on the network?

 

I have been under the impression that it was ok aslong as they were for educational use although that may have been the member of staff who told me`s way of justifying her collection!!!

[DevilsAdvocate]

I don't let anyone store any mp3 files on the network. If they want to use them, stick them on a memory stick. I'm not sure of legality of storing them, so I just don't let them!

 

Rob.

[mrforgetful]

I don't go looking for them and to be honest am not fussed if they have them, just so long as they know when they run out of space they have to delete them before they get more.

[russdev]

Tony will be along in a min to answer this all knowing on boring things such as copyright

 

Russ

Edited January 23, 2008 by russdev

[zag]

Yep don't care either, as long as people don't store them in their user areas.

 

You can worry till the cows come home about the legality of these things, but in reality no one is going to bother you about it.

[Andrew_C]

What MP3s ? I have thousands saved, but they are all "home produced" language lab exercises etc. "Stolen" songs that the RIAA may have an interest in are something entirely different.

[pallen]

I have asked the LEA for confirmation on this as it seemed a grey area to me. Here is an extract from a letter I recieved back

 

"On this basis if the teachers/pupils are using musical video clips purely for the research of educational purposes then one would say that this is covered by the fair dealing system.

On this basis one does not feel that licences would be required as this isn't going to be a performance just as a play which is going to be adapted and will need have the copyrights to do this providing everything stays within the educational field. "

 

In my view, this basically gives users here the right to store and play music/video files for subjects which use them in an educational manner. If you are unsure and would like confirmation, contact your LEA as they may hold licences which cover all schools in your area.

 

From this answer though, I now get the headache of sorting out which files are used for educational uses and which are personal. I am thinking of toying with the idea of having a shared resource area which stores music/video for the duration of a subjects use and deleted at the end. Any music files stored in individual user areas will be deemed non educational and deleted. Obviously this poses problems with the music department:confused:

 

There is another thread discussing music/video licencing here http://www.edugeek.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11890

Edited January 23, 2008 by pallen
Update

[enjay]

I would agree with your LEA about the 'educational use is okay' stance, and found similar when I (briefly) looked at the issue myself.

 

I don't think your shared resource area idea would work, though; I can think of too many instances of people (staff or student) having educational reason to keep MP3 files, but not wanting them to be in a shared area where any idiot could amend or delete them, or wanting them in another location, for example so they can be embedded in a PowerPoint presentation. This could apply to any staff, I don't think it is just the Music Dept.

 

I'm not sure it does fall to you to determine the nature of all the MP3 files on your network though, not least because that would be impossible - instead, I'd consider writing something in your AUP to the effect of "no dodgy files are to be kept on the network", that way you can throw the book at the teachers should the brown stuff ever hit the fan and/or SMT are covered because the users have been informed of the law and policies. Would that work?

[plexer]

"On this basis if the teachers/pupils are using musical video clips purely for the research of educational purposes then one would say that this is covered by the fair dealing system.

 

what would the fair dealing system be? if you are referring to fair use then I believe that that doesn't exist in the uk.

 

Ben

[DMcCoy]

Do you have any fair use rights for education use if the original copyright material was obtained illegally though?

[localzuk]

what would the fair dealing system be? if you are referring to fair use then I believe that that doesn't exist in the uk.

 

Ben

 

Fair dealing is the limited concept described here: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/copy/c-manage/c-useenforce/c-useenforce-use/c-useenforce-use-exception.htm

 

So, whilst we don't have a general fair use doctrine over here, we do have this...

[Geoff]

I thought the recent amendments to the Copyright Designs and Patents act made 'fair dealing' a moot point for digitally stored copyrighted media?

[Pete10141748]

If they have mp3 music files which they want to use regularly (such as we have here, our 'Morning Music' as they call it), offer to burn them to a CD for them and then remove it from their machine.

 

 

The way I see it is always worst-case scenario;

 

They download a file at home - law break no. 1

They copy it to their memory stick - law break no.2

They copy it to their school-assigned laptop - law break no.3 AND policy break no.1

The server takes a copy of all files, including a copy of the illegal music file - law break by the SCHOOL no.1

We make a backup of the server onto tape - School and us techie's break the law no.2

 

NOT GOOD!

 

Just yesterday I sent out 3 notices to individual members of staff, asking them to remove their music and (personal) pictures from their laptops by the end of the week, else we would do it for them, regardless of backups not being made by them.

Our policy clearly states that there is no provision for personal storage on any machine belonging to the school, which has the Head's backing as well, so if anyone argues the point, we just point them to the sheet they have signed, and.....

 

end of.

 

Pete

[ICT_GUY]

I hate what sometimes gets done on the network to make things work.

 

It would be great to have some of our resource CD's on the network so that they didnt get lost and so that everyone can access them. As only one dance class goes on at a time, it should be reasonable to allow that class to access that music via the network.

 

This is one of those "break the looms" moments in time from the luddites at recording industry a** of America. Where they had a monopoly on the production of mass recordings. Their whole business was built on the premis that the public could not make high quality recordings cheaper than they could buy the CD.

 

Now a CD costs 20p (mass produced CD's cost pennies to produce) they still want to charge £10 - £12 even though most of the cost (50% is for the shops which are, lets face it completely redundant) and the rest is made up of profit for them and earnings for the Artist.

 

Plus I cannot remember the last time I used a CD to listen to music. Even my car Radio plays MP3's. The bulk of a CD for just one Album! Gack!

 

Think I am being unfair? How many film rental shops have gone bust now that most of the county has access to sky box office or buys their films at ASDA / TESCO for £2 more than the hire cost?

 

/rant

 

I shall go have a lie down.

[GrumbleDook]

Copyright and schools ... hmm ... I can see the people with exceptionally smart suites and very expensive cars are going to eventually visit schools and demand money on behalf of $Big_Company before long (I was warned about it a few months ago and told to expect rumblings in the next 18 months!)

 

Fair use in schools is none existant. It is a bit of a red herring. It relies on so many things it is silly.

 

Let's have a look at the reality of it.

 

Firstly, the audio / video has to have been purchased by the school (either directly or by the teacher with the school making payment to the original purchaser). The ownership of the product is then with the school and those authorised to use and play it. There are strict rules about when and where you can use the original media and this is when you get into the extra bits ... public performance licences, etc

 

Secnodly you have to consider the exceptions article and look whether it is reasonable that you can produce a digital format of the audio / video. Under ERA there are many items you can record and store digitally, but not on pay-per-view or subscription purchases (unless specifically mentioned in the T&C of the subscription service). This is why so many videos have 'cannot be played in a school, oil rig, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship' on them. For this you can buy into and additional licence that is agreed by a number of distributors ... but this still only allows you to play the original, not a digital version.

 

When it comes to MP3s we are still on dodgy ground. The amendments are proposals at the moment, with no fixed date for them to become statute. Even when the final amendments are written and in place it will be tightly worded so that reproduction of digitally stored copyrighted articles may not be transferred to another format unless specifically allowed by the copyright holder or to transfer the files to another person for financial gain or to detrimental financial gain of the copyright holder. This means you can rip a CD to your machine, you can whack it onto your MP3 player (same format) and whack it back onto another laptop you own, but you cannot then burn it back to another CD (unless purchase digitally and then you can burn to CD a number of times or maybe even a single time!), you cannot swap it with a friend without transferring ownership of the original media too and you cannot sell copies, or give copies away (giving copies away means that a sale does not take place and so the copyright holder loses out financially)

 

A school buys a CD, rips it, stores it ... but it has to make sure that it is only being used by one person at a time, otherwise you have to pay for multiple use of it, or you have to broadcast it instead (and pay a broadcast licence).

 

There is no justification for a teacher, at this time, to use your servers to store their own MP3 collection. Educationally, if they find the music good to use then they should buy the CD and use the CD. It is pretty black and white still.

 

I hope this hasn't rambled on too much about it.

 

As an aside ... I think it bloody stinks and that a school should be able to have a bank of digitally store audio and video resources that it can use when it wants. If it means having to pay a licence fee, then fine ... but I just wish someone at the DCFS / IPO / etc would pull their finger out and give some decent guidance.

 

There are schools out there that would get massive benefits from this and instead we get lumbered with people pointing the finger at the support teams and call us blockers when we are only following the letter of the law ... letters we don't like.

 

Rant over ... I'm off home.

 

PS Russ ... some of us have been working today and haven't really had time to make immediate responses ;-)

[Sylv3r]

I tend to run "dodgy file" searches on the network every couple of weeks or so and remover offending files. Students appear to copy MP3's from their memory pen into the MyDocuuments folder. I have no problem with them listening directly from their memory pen so I've no idea why they see the need to copy them to the server.

 

It is generally getting a lot harder to manage now that the influx of media rich courses are coming on board such as DiDA and the students are teachers are getting a little more adventoruos in the way they teach and deliver a lesson, the increase of media files will only grow into the future.

[russdev]

what would the fair dealing system be? if you are referring to fair use then I believe that that doesn't exist in the uk.

 

Ben

 

 

No I think they mean copyright exemption as you can use copyrighted material for education purpose as long as you a) don't distribute it and b) used for education non-commercial use only.

[pallen]

I think that glossing over the problem by stating that schools can use the fair dealing system is still a bit vague. But that is the reason I went to the LEA for guidance. I now have written documentation which states how we can use media for educational needs and how it can be stored on the network. Now if anyone queries this, I can point them in the direction of the LEA instead of the blame coming onto me.

 

We have an AUP in place which clearly states that the network is only available for educational use and is not to be used for personal needs. This covers any files stored there, not just music and video.

 

The storage area I was thinking about would be where all the legally bought music/video by the school could be stored. Any files brought in from home would not go onto the network as a licence could not be proven(you just know little jonny has downloaded it ilegally)

 

In all honesty the respsonse that I got back from the legal department did little for my confidence in where the school stands in the legality of storing music and video. But I now have a reference point in case it is ever picked up as I do now want to be respsonsible for making the decision on storing such files as I do not have the expertise. I have always advised people to use their own CDs/DVDs on their personal players, that way it keeps me and the network out of it.

 

I aggree with grumbledook, there should be some decent guidance for schools by now. The way that pupils are being educated has developed so fast with the aid and use of technology that the guidance is too far behind. There are too many laws open to interpretation that can cause problems - as we can see just from this thread.

 

My advice, got legal advice from the LEA in writing stating how people can use your network for storing and playing of media files.

[enjay]

The storage area I was thinking about would be where all the legally bought music/video by the school could be stored. Any files brought in from home would not go onto the network as a licence could not be proven(you just know little jonny has downloaded it ilegally)

 

So you'll be the only person with write access to this area, and all files must go through you - with proof of licence - before you copy them up? Sounds like fun; sounds like a full-time job, too...

 

Don't get me wrong - I love the theory (I think I even agree with it), but I just can't see how it actually works in reality.

[pallen]

I was talking more about putting things from the pupils onto that area. They would have to go through me, as you know must pupils dont know (or dont care) about the licencing issue of music and video. After the initial "you cant put that on there as you cant prove you bought it"(for downloaded music etc)they will soon get the message not to bother coming to me without the proper documentation.

 

As for staff, everything that they use in school now should be purchased through the school and come with licences if required. There should be a record for everything that is used in schools. Storing of music and video should be no different.

 

Regarding whether my idea would work or not, time will tell. I have asked to meet with staff to discuss how we can implement a solution which upholds all the licences issues and does not generate a massive amount of work for someone. As yet, no one has contacted me, so no music/video files are allowed to be stored.

 

Oh, and of course it helps if your in a smaller school too We have about 600 pupils here, so fairly small compared to some of you guys Any other ideas are most welcome, especially if someone has already got a system that works.