[sims] SIMS Support and Licensing

[mjk]

Hello.

 

Please can anyone explain how SIMS support and licensing works at your school?

I have been tasked with making cuts in the department and this is one of the things that I need to look at.

 

We currently pay the local authority a fixed price; We are currently paying around £10,000 per year for this service and we need to make vital investment for teaching and learning. I understand that gives us the right to download patches from them and this pays for any annual license.

Can someone confirm whether this is the case - are we allowed to get patches from Capita? is there a better financial model ?

[pete]

Without saying what SIMS modules you're using (and how you bought SIMS initially) you won't get an accurate answer.

 

We're direct with Capita for support and licensing. We get a "this is what we think we should be charging you based on the number of pupils and modules you're using" statement from Capita every year that we confirm/amend as applicable.

[mjk]

Thanks Pete.

 

How much does a basic license cost per pupil? Does this include any support ?

Can you buy perpetual licenses ?

[localzuk]

Thanks Pete.

 

How much does a basic license cost per pupil? Does this include any support ?

Can you buy perpetual licenses ?

 

You have a perpetual license already if you're running SIMS - when you initially buy it, you buy that license. What you're paying for each year is ongoing updates and support. You need the ongoing updates in order to comply with things like census returns.

 

You're best speaking to Capita themselves to figure out what money is going where.

[mjk]

Thank you.

 

It would be useful to know what others are paying for support/updates? either direct from Capita or through a third party.

[CAM]

Each release contains the necessary files and updates for the school census. Unless you are planning on doing the census manually (good luck with that!) you will need the updates to complete your statutory returns.

 

You can't take the files from the Spring census and use them for the Autumn Post-16 return for example as it would be a very different application (and your data manager will be rocking in the corner of their office at the thought of pairing grades to course memberships in Excel one by one).

[mjk]

Thank you, I understand why the updates are necessary.

How much do you pay for the basic support package per pupil ?

[matt40k]

Not sure what your trying to achieve to be honest @mjk, like others have said, SIMS pricing is pretty tailored to the school based on various modules. The only way your get a price drop is to either a) drop bits off, like any top-up support your LA provides or modules which I would hope you need as you've bought them or b) by switching MIS systems. Lucky most other MIS providers are pretty honest when it comes to pricing and list the costs on Government Digital Marketplace - https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.gov.uk/search?categoryId=&lot=saas&showSubcategories=true&keyword=mis.

[mjk]

@matt40k I was simply trying to find what other schools are paying for support and whether we can get a better deal from another local authority, a private supplier or from Capita.

 

At first I was under the impression that we were paying an annual license fee, but localzuk corrected me here.

So I discover that we are paying for support updates ( about 3 per year, not including the fixes for capitas mistakes ) and telephone support ( about 10 calls per year, most of which are already covered on forums) - this seems quite high when I am facing massive cuts

 

I worked out we are paying about £7 per pupil per year, plus a another £1.80 for additional modules.

 

can anyone tell me what they are paying please ?

[localzuk]

Significantly more than that. Can't give you exact figures as contracts are commercially sensitive. Also, 10 calls a year? We deal with our local SIMS team almost on a weekly basis for various things here!

[edutech4schools]

I look after some primary schools and they all sign up to the LA for Sims. I also was interested to find out if we could save any money going direct as I thought Sims was expensive but it turned out we had a good deal going with our LA.

 

Why not give Capita a call, you will find out how much it would cost going direct.

 

I do agree it is very expensive

[Boredguy]

While I don't know exactly how much our support contract is, I know it's not cheap as we also have hosted SLG included, but it is one of the largest IT related yearly outgoing (our Internet connection bill of £14k beats it)

 

Like @localzuk we can also deal with our local SIMS team on a very frequent basis, (as well as the main Bedford office for SLG issues)

According to our support log, we had at least 24 separate jobs logged with Capita in the past year and that excludes some where they didn't log it on the system as we were requesting patches.

[mjk]

Significantly more than that. Can't give you exact figures as contracts are commercially sensitive. Also, 10 calls a year? We deal with our local SIMS team almost on a weekly basis for various things here!

 

Yes, most of the answers seem to be on the forums, or here.

I don't think LEA contracts can be commercially sensitive because it is government spending I'm sure an FOI would be able to reveal inter-departmental spending.

 

Anyone else have a price as to what their LA charges per pupil ?

[localzuk]

Yes, most of the answers seem to be on the forums, or here.

I don't think LEA contracts can be commercially sensitive because it is government spending I'm sure an FOI would be able to reveal inter-departmental spending.

 

Anyone else have a price as to what their LA charges per pupil ?

 

It isn't an LEA contract. It is a private contract with Capita, and we're an Academy, not an LEA school.

[mjk]

Thank's to everyone who replied. I have a much better understanding of how things work now.

 

I'd like to rephrase the question slightly:

Given that I'm not paying a license fee and just for support could:

 

1) My school provide support/patches to other schools.

2) My school buy support/patches from another school.

3) is there a precedent for this?

4) are their third party companies (not LA's) that do this?

Edited May 7, 2015 by mjk

[localzuk]

You would have to be a certified support provider to do that, which has associated training and costs etc...

[mjk]

You would have to be a certified support provider to do that, which has associated training and costs etc...

 

 

Ok, how do Capita prevent non-certified support people from supporting/patching ?

I know Microsoft do it by licensing, but as an untrained Microsoft tech I am still able to support other schools.

[localzuk]

Ok, how do Capita prevent non-certified support people from supporting/patching ?

I know Microsoft do it by licensing, but as an untrained Microsoft tech I am still able to support other schools.

 

Support? Nothing to stop you. Patching? You can't get the patches without Capita providing them - they release them via their systems.

[Boredguy]

Ok, how do Capita prevent non-certified support people from supporting/patching ?

I know Microsoft do it by licensing, but as an untrained Microsoft tech I am still able to support other schools.

 

If a site is using Solus 2, then it's possible to share the main update file with another site, but if it decides to corrupt the database who would then be responsible.

With the MIS being such a critical piece of software I'm sure the Leadership team would want to ensure that a valid support holder can be held accountable instead of Jo Bloggs down the road at School X (who could find their Capita support curtailed)

[Banjo]

@mjk

I'm guessing that the LA 'owns' your SIMS licence, and you just buy Annual Maintenance and support from them.

If you were to move away from your LA for support, then you may have to re-licence the whole of SIMS (like academies do) and pay annual maintenance directly to Capita. You would then be free to choose your own MIS support provider that may or may not be cheaper than you’re current LA.

 

To compare these prices you need to find out what a (secondary) academy pays the LA for MIS support in your authority and then see if other LA's or providers can beat this on price and quality.

 

However, by moving away from your LA you will certainly end up with a big bill in year 1 from licence costs, so even if you buy support cheaper elsewhere, you may not see any actual for 5 or more years.

 

>The official line 'was' that AM prices via an LA are lower than maintained schools going directly to Capita - but I've seen AM invoices to schools from Capita and they look 'very' similar :-)

[mjk]

Ok, thanks. I thought it would be prudent to ask the questions - £10k per year buys a LOT of learning resources!!

 

If there are no other private companies that supply support/patches, what about other LA's - can I get quotes from them?

Does anyone work at an LA that could provide quotations? It doesn't seem right that we just pay a bill without asking these questions!

[mjk]

@mjk

I'm guessing that the LA 'owns' your SIMS licence, and you just buy Annual Maintenance and support from them.

If you were to move away from your LA for support, then you may have to re-licence the whole of SIMS (like academies do) and pay annual maintenance directly to Capita. You would then be free to choose your own MIS support provider that may or may not be cheaper than you’re current LA.

 

 

This is sounding logical !

[Banjo]

This is sounding logical !

 

You cant buy AM from another LA :-(

[matt40k]

To be honest, we're not Capita. You need to speak with Capita. Capita will give you a quote if you go direct. They can also tell you what it'll cost in terms of any school you decide to support - ie will they give you\them a discount if you offer support like an LA. To be honest your prob not going to get a good a deal with say 3 primary schools as you are as an LA with 100s schools.

 

As for the whole what do people pay, yes, you can FOI request it, in fact people do - check out https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/. But still, even if you go to another LA, third party company, they will still need to contact Capita and ask for a quote for YOUR school and it'll be highly unlikely to be same as another school as no two schools are alike. If you really want to get a realistic figure from another school of a similar size, then post your school details - dfe no so we can pull the data from edubase like pupil count etc, and what modules you have, ideally post the actual non-crypt Capita quote they send out every year*.

 

* Disclaimer - check if you can legally post it, otherwise find another school like yours and contact them direct offline - see @GREED spreadsheet with a list of schools and their MIS system based on the census return - https://eduwareconsulting.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/mis-analysis.xlsx

[mjk]

Thanks everyone for helping here.

 

To help crystallise my understanding, would you mind going through this:

 

1) Capita Sell SIMS to anyone, but the LA usually owns the software except for academies.

2) Capita only provide patches to the people that they sold the initial license to - Can a license be transferred ????

3) Anyone can provide support for SIMS, but few do due to the high cost of being certified. Being certified adds gravitas.

4) there is no actual need to be actually certified, but it helps Capita keep things cosy.

5) Any school has freedom of a competitive market to choose support/patch providers and lower costs, but you have to 'buy; the system yourself and not through the LA.

6) LA's don't have much incentive to sell support to schools outside their catchment areas; hence the perception that you just pay the bill without asking question.

 

Please let me know where I've gone wrong.

@Banjo Not sure about why you can't buy annual maintenance through any LA you choose if you already paid for the license ?