SIMS Registers and Fire Drills

[cdunn93]

Hi all,

 

We are looking to get the teachers to be using SIMS themsleves to take the registers in the mornings and afternoons come September.

 

For this they would obviously need their laptops and an internet connection. However, say in the event of a fire or fire drill everyone meets at the assembly point which is outside and there is no internet connection outside so they would not be able to take the registers.

 

Does anyone have an idea of how we can overcome this? Would it simply be a case of printing whos in and whos not daily so that we have a paper copy?

 

Many thanks,

[GREED]

Have you looked at Groupcall Emerge (or similar) that has been doing this for years? It takes an offline copy of the data so internet connection is not needed.

 

For balance, there are other products that can do essentially the same. You really don't want to be in the paper printout routine, it only take one time for printer to jam/out of ink/ forget to do it... Plus think of the waste!

 

I'm not sure but possibly the new SIMS teacher app might be able to do this (if not, @PhilNeal should make it happen!)

[sted]

i think most schools ive been in just write down on a wipe board the number of kids in class 4c (or whatever) and take that out with them

[PhilNeal]

Talk to your fire service - almost certainly they will say that they will ignore anything you say!

[GREED]

Talk to your fire service - almost certainly they will say that they will ignore anything you say!

 

Hope that isn't a suggestion to not bother having a fire register at all... :/

[creese]

This is a very old chestnut.

 

I spoke to the Chief Fire Officer here many years ago. His advise is what Phil said, 'we will ignore anything you say, a child may have slipped in without being noticed. A child may have said they were going but not cleared the building.' He said his men would not ever risk the fact that an administritive error would result in them not rescuing a child... or member of staff. They would systematically sweep the building regardless.

 

By all means take a register, print it with a super speed printer, that is not in the room on fire, whatever you want. It will only serve to make the school feel good.

[GREED]

This is a very old chestnut.

 

I spoke to the Chief Fire Officer here many years ago. His advise is what Phil said, 'we will ignore anything you say, a child may have slipped in without being noticed. A child may have said they were going but not cleared the building.' He said his men would not ever risk the fact that an administritive error would result in them not rescuing a child... or member of staff. They would systematically sweep the building regardless.

 

By all means take a register, print it with a super speed printer, that is not in the room on fire, whatever you want. It will only serve to make the school feel good.

 

My point still stands... are we saying don't bother with a fire register? Or more appropriately will anyone actually take a stand on that?

 

This isn't about making the firefighter's lives easier (as it doesn't), but about school procedure. About what can be done in certain situations. I will admit I don't know the guidelines, but if fire is reported in building a, child is believed to be in building b, and fire service is delayed, is the guidance to leave the child and not re-enter the building? What about very small children, or disabled?

 

I don't know, but I don't believe any school would commit to saying 'we won't bother having a fire register because it is not useful'...

[PhilNeal]

Are you opposed to talking to the fire service?

[matt40k]

By all means take a register, print it with a super speed printer, that is not in the room on fire, whatever you want. It will only serve to make the school feel good.

 

Not sure how standing next to highly flammable toner in a fire would make me feel good!!

 

 

@GREED - the advise is not to overthink it and go out and spend £££ on a solution that isn't really needed. It's great if you can access your MIS over 3G on your phone, but don't rely on it, signals drop out and I've yet to see a solution that is 100% proof. Best advise is to print form registers (termly) then have the kids line up by form group and the form tutor accounts for their tutor group. You then have reception with the sign in\out book and the attendance officer has the printed the absence list (as they normally handwrite notes as they work through it). Any technical solution will have it's problems - thats why most of us are employeed and why this site exists!! Problems happen and it normally happens at the worse possible time. The key is to keep it simple - and like @creese and @PhilNeal have said, the fire crew will ignore anything you say so its more a question of giving teachers lists to tick off for their own peace of mine more then anything.

[creese]

My point still stands... are we saying don't bother with a fire register? Or more appropriately will anyone actually take a stand on that?

 

This isn't about making the firefighter's lives easier (as it doesn't), but about school procedure. About what can be done in certain situations. I will admit I don't know the guidelines, but if fire is reported in building a, child is believed to be in building b, and fire service is delayed, is the guidance to leave the child and not re-enter the building? What about very small children, or disabled?

 

I don't know, but I don't believe any school would commit to saying 'we won't bother having a fire register because it is not useful'...

 

Why would the fire service be delayed? A call would be made as soon as a fire was suspected. What is wrong with the existing register, provided it is safe to print, which it shouldn't be. as soon as the alarm sounds, leave all belongings and safely exit the building, do not stop. A building should never be re-entered, human nature may dictate otherwise, but school procedure should be:

Suspect a fire, sound alarm, vacate, ring 999, assemble as instructed, enter building only when it is confirmed to be safe.

 

Entering a building could make the Fire Service job twice as difficult.

 

Just as with an oxygen mask in-flight, making sure you are safe is the first priority. Only then can you help others.

Edited July 14, 2014 by creese

[GREED]

Are you opposed to talking to the fire service?

 

Not in the slightest, but still missing the point it isn't just a list for the fire service. This is a list to potentially enable you to act or be aware of a situation.

 

Yes I agree Matt don't buy a solution just for this one thing but if it is included in a solution you have already then great.

 

And yet no one has responded to the question: should there be a list, given the points made...?

[creese]

And yet no one has responded to the question: should there be a list, given the points made...?

 

No. I don't see how you could ever be certain that it was accurate, my point with the fire register. Too much room for error, too much movement within and in and out of the school. No system is fail-safe.

 

A facetious recommendation? Tag the kids and staff. But as we all know, that doesn't work.

[matt40k]

I think for @cdunn93 case, the advise would be for teachers to have a current class list and the keep it simple. You must have something already in place and the question would be why are you changing it? Is the change being pushed by technology or process? I personally think your looking at changing something that is prob fine as it is and doesn't need to change.

@GREED - I think we're going off topic, we're having the real-time debate again like with parental reporting!

[cdunn93]

My head is rather keen for the school to be up to date with technology and to come away from paper registers as she deems them as a bit old fashioned. I agree that they work perfectly fine but by the teachers marking in pupils themselves it takes some workload off of our admin staff as well as they then don't have to type in the marks for the whole school. We are currently trialing it with one of our classes and it is working very well with very little to no errors as admin staff only enter in unauthorised absentees, illnesses or appointments.

 

The only problem that I found with doing it this way is obviously the fire register. I agree that the fire service will probably take no notice and sweep the building regardless just to make sure in the event of a fire but it is school procedure to have a fire register.

 

Didn't mean to cause a full on debate either only wanted to know if anyone had a solution!!!! haha

[creese]

 

Didn't mean to cause a full on debate either only wanted to know if anyone had a solution!!!! haha

 

Debate is good.

 

Are you a Primary or Secondary? Have you considered Lesson Monitor?

[soveryapt]

I think the point re the fire bridage is a good one, they will ignore, however, if you have an indication that there might be a child missing when you take a register, then this might give them some clue as to where that child might be or even that they are actually looking for a child (member of staff / visitor / contractor / etc). Or if everyone checks off on the register you can then tell them "to the best of our knowledge all pupils, staff and visitors are accounted for".

 

As for a solution, I'm would be interested to hear of any solutions as we're looking to go digital with various things around the school and I've suggested trialling electronic registers now we're on a flat network. I mean, your other option (again, not 100%) is to put an external access point near the assembly point or points. This way, you would have a connection, but the connection is only worth anything if you're server room isn't burning down and so long as the cables don't burn through etc.

[cdunn93]

we are a primary and I have not heard of lesson monitor? what is that exactly?

[creese]

we are a primary and I have not heard of lesson monitor? what is that exactly?

 

Lesson by lesson registration. About £200 for a primary. Just checking price.

 

EDIT:

Licence £500

Annual £250

Edited July 14, 2014 by creese

[cdunn93]

ah right ok I shall have a look into this thank you

[creese]

I would also recommend SLT look at these, why reinvent the wheel.

 

Case studies | capita-sims.co.uk

[GREED]

No. I don't see how you could ever be certain that it was accurate, my point with the fire register. Too much room for error, too much movement within and in and out of the school. No system is fail-safe.

 

A facetious recommendation? Tag the kids and staff. But as we all know, that doesn't work.

 

Just to be clear, you would recommend schools don't have a fire register?

 

Apologies this part is off topic slightly, I am genuinely interested in the views from schools. I've never been involved in policy or practice for fire evac in schools so learning here too. I just cannot imagine where a school wouldn't have drills or real fire evacs without a list of some description.

[creese]

Just to be clear, you would recommend schools don't have a fire register?

 

 

What is a Fire Register? Seriously, have you ever heard of an official fire register. If one was of use, don't you think someone would have come up with one by now?

[GREED]

What is a Fire Register? Seriously, have you ever heard of an official fire register. If one was of use, don't you think someone would have come up with one by now?

 

So... Why does every school have a list in case of fire?

 

Fire register perhaps not the best phrase... granted!

 

I'm amused that no one will commit to say 'No, schools should not have a fire list/register' yet is the jist of the argument...

[creese]

No, schools should not have a fire list/register.

[GREED]

No, schools should not have a fire list/register.

 

:-D

 

And don't get me wrong, while I disagree with that I agree with your points that lists etc can be fraught with issues and inaccuracies.

 

Regardless of agreement, I wonder if any schools are brave enough not to have a fire list? Or speak up if they don't now?