matt40k Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) note: Posts moved here from Schoolcomms thread, below two posts are for context only. Surprising as it might seem, especially after Capita released InTouch, @Schoolcomms is SIMS only. Means they have less problems and are more focused. Does however mean they are basically under Capita control. Edited February 3, 2014 by vikpaw mod note - vp
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Does however mean they are basically under Capita control. I wound't say that really. Schoolcomms weathered the storm of InTouch being released, and well. It means they sell to 85% of the market. I don't see how that makes them under Capita control?
matt40k Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 Don't be silly, if Capita decides to up the API costs, they're going to have to up their costs which means they control the pricing. They can't do anything that isn't already present, so everything they've done, anybody could throw money at Capita and do. Capita are the only one that can do anything new with SIMS, so they control the product. Personally, I wouldn't mind running a company that is dependant on another so heavily, I just wouldn't be doing it after they released a rival product - I'd feel like a Capita crash test dummy after they did that. Hopefully they've got a stake in SIMS and my god must the partners team got a bonus for keeping them and the others on-board.
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 That doesn't mean they are controlled by Capita, as if Capita were to do that they would damage relationships with everyone. The product stands up for itself, that is proven by the fact they are still going despite InTouch. They are releasing now and innovative products each year. Yes they only target Capita schools currently, because that is where they were born.
matt40k Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 I would say releasing InTouch damaged alot more then just Schoolscomm and I wouldn't put it pass Capita at increasing their API prices. I think personally their having to do this to keep their customer base. Yes they only target Capita schools currently, because that is where they were born. I grow up in Wisbech, doesn't mean I stuck around. It'll be a pretty career limiting move if I had! I'm not saying they should drop SIMS support, that would be silly. I'd just start support other MIS systems after they released InTouch!
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Capita need to be careful because they are now about the only MIS that charges for use of their API. Or very soon will be i should say...
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Any who this is taking the conversation off topic... maybe move this to another thread (MODS)
PhilNeal Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 So we don't charge for read access and our write charges have been fixed for years. Our TP support team doesn't recover all of its costs.
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 You don't charge for read access however to be able to use Business Objects you have to be a Capita partner, relieving clients of several £k so there really is a charge.
PhilNeal Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 No we publish the APIs and anyone can use them foc.
GREED Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 What would be really good is if you provided a sandbox for customers to test against, rather than their own systems. I'm then interested too as to why you are able to provide the read API free but associate a cost with write back?
PhilNeal Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 We have a large high quality team dedicated to supporting TP access as a chargeable service; it includes software, sandboxing, data etc. That is paid for through various charging mechanisms - it just about breaks even but not quite. Read access is only supported through documentation and doesn't normally drain our resources.
matt40k Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 Sorry, taking this further off topic You don't charge for read access however to be able to use Business Objects you have to be a Capita partner, relieving clients of several £k so there really is a charge. Umm... Can I just direct your attention to: SIMS Bulk Import - Home. So no, you don't need to be a Capita partner. If you have SIMS, you have everything you need (other then a programmer). Far as I am aware I'm the first person to use the business objects that isn't a professional development company and not requiring any consultancy. What would be really good is if you provided a sandbox for customers to test against, rather than their own systems. They produce a training database you can use (chargeable), or failing that you can create your own, or use a copy of a schools*. Capita actually had a public API for Capita ONE which is SIMS bigger (LA) brother - not sure if it's still public public. I've yet to actually get access to a sandbox from any other MIS supplier without cost - feel free to PM if any MIS supplier is reading this and would like to give me access I accept why they charge for write back - after all writes are more dangerous then reads. I'm currently in a nice grey area where if it goes wrong, the fix will be to manually remove what is imported. It's not exactly as complex as some other things you can write back - money is a difficult one as you have to worry about auditing, something that often gets overlooked. Also, if a school pays for something, they want proper support, which means you need to hire people at Capita to take your call. Now excuse me whilst I go scrub myself clean. * DPA exception of course
vikpaw Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I always understood you had to pay for access to the API unless you were a school. Also, there is limited documentation, unless you're a paying partner. So basically, you get access to the business objects but no help in how to use them, so unless you've got time and interest like @matt40k you'd be a bit impotent even with the tools. That is only my impression. Plus i thought the bulk importer was a special allowance and not a general rule, otherwise you'd have people feeding all manner of junk into the system. It's scary what damage someone could do with the business objects and a neat looking website and some clever marketing. - don't get any ideas @GREED
matt40k Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 If it boils down to if you're profiting, you pay. I don't see a problem, which is how I see it. Far as documentation - it's pretty limited full stop. It's not exactly something you can document - the code is the documentation. PS: Cheers vikpaw for splitting this out
vikpaw Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I have seen some sample docs and even an example or too, but i can see why they don't want to make it easy. It is interesting to see the areas that SIMS expands into, e.g. the apps, though only Groupcall have a teacher's app so far, it is a direction @Schoolcomms could go as well since they already do attendance write back via the software. Plus it would be cheaper.
matt40k Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 I suspect that sample docs was the actual documentation, you REALLY need to be a programmer to understand it, also helps to understand how schools works - like the fact that although UPN stands for UNIQUE pupil number, you can't be sure it's UNIQUE. They can't be expected to teach programming after all, so it's not going to be click this, type that and bam you've made an app! They can however teach a programmer about schools, but I doubt many programmers would want to spend hours reading SIMS manuals and DfE guidance when they could be working on something more exciting and getting paid a heck of a lot more money.
LosOjos Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Hang on - Business Objects are free to use read only? I tried for ages to get access to those and was told that I needed to pay. I did get some TP documentation a while back, but it only covered calling CommandReporter from C# (so nothing to do with BO). How do we go about getting started with Read Only BOs?
vikpaw Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Hang on - Business Objects are free to use read only? I tried for ages to get access to those and was told that I needed to pay. I did get some TP documentation a while back, but it only covered calling CommandReporter from C# (so nothing to do with BO). How do we go about getting started with Read Only BOs? Exactly! They are all hiding in your C drive, it's just nobody told you what all those .dll files are for
localzuk Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Hang on - Business Objects are free to use read only? I tried for ages to get access to those and was told that I needed to pay. I did get some TP documentation a while back, but it only covered calling CommandReporter from C# (so nothing to do with BO). How do we go about getting started with Read Only BOs? Yeah, if you're a SIMS customer you have free access to the BOs. You just need to get the documentation to accompany them, which IIRC is covered under an NDA.
matt40k Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 You guys want to be careful, you'll give two people at Capita big heads the way you speak about that mythical 18 page word document written back in April 2008.
LosOjos Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Yeah, if you're a SIMS customer you have free access to the BOs. You just need to get the documentation to accompany them, which IIRC is covered under an NDA. You guys want to be careful, you'll give two people at Capita big heads the way you speak about that mythical 18 page word document written back in April 2008. That's where I get stuck - I know the BOs are simply a range of DLLs in the SIMS install folder but without the documentation (which I gave up asking for 2 years ago) I don't want to touch them. Brief as the documentation might be, if it simply tells me how to connect to the DB and retrieve data, I'll work the rest out for myself from there. Without that basic info though I don't want to experiment with them on a live DB! @PhilNeal - how do I go about getting hold of the BO documentation for read only access?
matt40k Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 You would NEVER develop of a live db anyway, you would NEVER test on a live db either. What data do you want to retrieve? If you can't tell them what you want to extract and why, I doubt they'll be willing to allocate what limited resources they have when you can use the reporting engine.
LosOjos Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 You would NEVER develop of a live db anyway, you would NEVER test on a live db either. What data do you want to retrieve? If you can't tell them what you want to extract and why, I doubt they'll be willing to allocate what limited resources they have when you can use the reporting engine. I'd just like to try live retrieval of assessment data. I have systems in place to gather data in the wee hours to a separate SQL DB where my in house analysis system picks it up to process, but it'd be great if it was live.
vikpaw Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 It's worth talking to @David_Grashoff - always been very helpful, the last time it came up i think was in this thread - not sure if we reached the same conclusion there about the charge, i think it wasn't http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/92427-development-open-source-parent-gateway.html If BO is too complicated, you could look at just setting up your own read only access to the SQL direct either porting it elsewhere or using a view, it does mean you have to work your way around the tables, but i've done some queries for checking when results were updated, it wasn't too bad. Of course if the structure changes you're in trouble, but i imagine that's an area they will gladly leave alone. 1
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