ruckus kit

[kiwimatt]

hi all,

 

been "given" a goody bag by local authority

 

consists of , ruckus zone director 3050

 

17 zoneflex 7343 internal access points , 2 time external ap's

 

a load of hp poe switches , which are yet to be delivered

 

now have just had a quote to configure and install all of this gear , which they estimate will take 5 days costing 4k

 

anyone has this type of gear installed?and can they recommend any other installers to get quotes

 

many thanks

 

matt

[bladedanny]

We installed our Ruckus ourselves. Really easy to configure. I suppose it depends how easy it is to run cabling.

[SYNACK]

Just plugged it in ourselves, read up a bit on vlans and sort some time to try different positions for the waps and you should be fine.

[maark]

Installed ours ourselves - just swapped over old cisco points. Do you have any existing wireless? Pretty easy to configure.

[localzuk]

We have it here, installed it ourselves.

 

However, it all depends on what you want to do with it as to how much it'll end up costing you.

 

For installers, I'd speak with Net-Ctrl.

[synaesthesia]

damn - DIY man, DIY! Ruckus is easy enough, get some time and colleagues together to do a decent wireless survey.

Or just get a wireless survey done professionally and then DIY!

[IrritableTech]

We installed it ourselves too, but we were given a best bet guide by our suppliers based on building plans and a few measurements. It wasn't very scientific, we ended up tweaking it, but it works well now.

 

Speak with your Senior leaders - you've been given all this super equipment and would like to see it put to best use. They can pay someone to do it - quicker possibly - or they can give you the time to do it. You get some good experience and the school doesn't have to transfer monies away to private business. I'm guessing as this was a gift from the LA, they'll go with the second option - and that's also good for you in the long run.

 

Lots of advice available here for ruckus and vlanning on hp switches.

[neilmac]

Though well intentioned, beware of advice that you can just stick it in and it will be fine. That's OK for home use but not for important networks.

 

Do you just have a bag of equipment or do you already have a network in place and you are looking to rip and replace old for new ?

 

The circumstances of your install should determine what you actually need to do and how long it will take to get up and running. A reputable company will spend some time discussing your needs. Also ask them what qualifications / certifications they have to justify the fee they are charging.

 

As many have pointed out, the ruckus equipment is fairly easy to get up and running, though the advanced stuff takes some knowledge.

 

Do you have any idea of your capacity and throughput requirements ? Do you know about channel overlap, and how co-channel interference will affect your network ? I would advise you spend a little bit of time thinking about what you are trying to achieve before contracting anyone - if you need help with planning, let me know

NM

Edited October 7, 2013 by neilmac

[neilmac]

I forgot to add -

 

The Ruckus AP7343 is a single-band access point. If it were dual band (AP7363) the you have more of a chance of it just working due to band steering and additional 5GHZ features.

 

Don't forget, your data will be slower at 2.4 GHz, so a busy network will get more congested, and your channel planning needs to be spot on.

 

This is not going to be easy if you are putting 17 access points in to an area.

 

NM

[kiwimatt]

many thanks for the advice all

 

my 1st thought was diy

 

but my boss wants it done asap by professionals with experience

 

he's ok'd the spend so all fine by me as i get some training with it

 

aps are 7363 not 7343 my fat fingers strike again , but good new that we have the newer aps's

 

re: diy/guest byod access did you use layer 3 to segregate off the byod devices from your networks/servers or do you just use the RUckus guest module

 

will contact net-ctrl tomorrow

 

many thanks all again

 

matt

[dhicks]

Do you know about channel overlap, and how co-channel interference will affect your network ?

 

I rather thought the point of a managed wireless system was that it takes care of this kind of thing for you - you plonk the wireless access points where you like and the central controller figures out what channels to select for each access point and which directions to increase / reduce radio power to minimise interference between access points.

[neilmac]

David,

 

To an extent that's correct but the reality isn't that simple. In 2.4 GHz you only have 3 non overlapping channels, or 4 if you use OFDM only in UK (Ch 1,5,9 and 13).

 

*(802.11 b uses HR/DSSS as its modulation type, on a 22Mhz wide channel. An access point on channel 1 will have 3 MHz separation from the next channel up, channel 6. However, 802.11g uses OFDM for modulation, on a 20MHz channel. It's possible to have 4 x 20Mhz channels with no overlap, by using OFDM and channels 1,5,9 and 13). Ruckus controllers have an option to use these 4 channels if the country code allows it. 5GHZ channels are all 20MHz wide, are all adjacent and there is no overlap).

 

If a device transmits, it's all about who hears the transmission and what the consequences are. If the design is for coverage only, it's less of a problem, but when it's for capacity, it means lots of devices in a small space will cause co-channel interference even at minimum signal strength.

 

Mostly we get away with it because we don't stress the network but once we start to get a growth in the number of end user devices, it doesn't take long to degrade. This is why planning is such an important stage, because all of these factors need to be considered.

 

It's a bit difficult to explain just by text, usually a good sized white-board is my weapon of choice.

 

At least Matt has pointed out he has dual band access points, which provide a massive benefit.

 

NM

Edited October 7, 2013 by neilmac
Better explanation of OFDM

[neilmac]

Matt - PM sent.

[dhicks]

If a device transmits, it's all about who hears the transmission and what the consequences are. If the design is for coverage only, it's less of a problem, but when it's for capacity, it means lots of devices in a small space will cause co-channel interference even at minimum signal strength.

 

Okay, that makes sense - have a bunch of laptops in a classroom all try to use the same access point and you'll get inteference between devices all trying to communicate at the same time. I wouldn't have thought access point placement around the building would make much difference in that situation, though - you'd think simply adding more access points would do it, assuming the controler can dynamically change what channel an access point uses so it can have three channels for each classroom. Admitedly, I can see that getting expensive if you start simply scattering access points all over the place, although I think I'd be inclined to spread access points around the school to give coverage everywhere, then add in further access points if people struggled for bandwidth with multiple devices in a particular area.

 

Just from paractical expeience with our Ruckus access points, we simply bunged them wherever was handy and left them to it. We don't seem to have had any problems, and we've had 15 laptops at a time connecting from one classroom (of course, connecting 20 laptops in once classroom might give you a sudden performance drop as you hit the physical limit of how many devices you can handle).

[neilmac]

When it comes to large installs, you need to work out how many access points you should install to meet the required objectives. I have said in a number of posts, EVERYTHING begins with the objectives.

 

If you factor about 700 - 1000 pounds per AP (including cable drops, installation, licensing and switching) 5 additional access points you don't need is 5,000 pounds you could have saved.

 

Another issue you raise - within an area, only one device can talk at once - the rules of wifi state that if you detect a transmission, you can't transmit until that transmissions over, and there's a strict set of rules to govern that process.

 

So when it seems like multiple devices are all operation at the same time, they are in reality taking turns, though very quickly.

 

Overpowered or congested cells cause frame retries, which is the true killer of network performance. If your network is going to be moderately busy or upwards, and using more than just internet/email type traffic, the design has to take into account all of the factors that can reduce performance.

 

Controllers will do a certain amount of auto config to help but the battle between coverage vs capacity has to be fought at the planning stage. Access points placed for data will be laid out differently from those deployed for VoIP, and differently from those deployed for location tracking.

 

Another point to consider, when planning a network, most of us think in terms of what we need today, but capacity needs to be factored in for now, 3 years from now and 5 years from now.

[localzuk]

That last point, about future planning, is very true. When we installed our setup (which is in place for coverage, rather than density), we flooded the school with cable drops for potential placing of APs to cope with a significant increase in device density. We don't have any need for it yet, but longer term it'll save us money as we can add APs at the drop of a hat, without any extra infrastructure needs.

[dhicks]

Access points placed for data will be laid out differently from those deployed for VoIP, and differently from those deployed for location tracking.

 

Do you have much experience in using wireless access points for location tracking? I'm hoping to use our Ruckus wireless access points to track where assorted devices are around the school - we never seem to know where cameras, iPods and so on are, it would be very handy to be able to triangulate their position via WiFi down to the classroom they are in. The access points would need to be used for data access, too, of course - are the two functions somewhat mutualy exclusive?

[neilmac]

Hi David.

 

If you want generic advice, I would be happy to take this up in a new thread. 《 Advertising removed 》

 

NM

Edited October 7, 2013 by elsiegee40

[mac_shinobi]

Hi David.

 

If you want generic advice, I would be happy to take this up in a new thread. 《 Advertising removed 》

 

NM

 

I would be interested in location tracking , requirements, what's needed and how it works etc

[SYNACK]

I would be interested in location tracking , requirements, what's needed and how it works etc

 

A compatible network, like ruckus and a bunch of battery powered WiFi location tags that last a year or more on a battery Wifi & RFID Tags for Accurate Tracking - Aeroscout

[dhicks]

A compatible network, like ruckus and a bunch of battery powered WiFi location tags that last a year or more on a battery Wifi & RFID Tags for Accurate Tracking - Aeroscout

 

So the tracking is done from the client device? I imagine the location tags measure the signal strength from the various access points and triangulate their position from those, then report back via WiFi to a central server. It sound like the sort of thing you could do yourself with a Raspberry Pi or similar, although probably way less power-efficient. Is there some way of measuring signal strength from the access points themselves so you don't have to run any client-side code?

[tobiasclarity]

Wow that isnt a bad goodybag at all!!! we run Ruckus here, easy to use and setup. Cant complain about the system at all

[catch21]

many thanks for the advice all

 

my 1st thought was diy

 

but my boss wants it done asap by professionals with experience

 

he's ok'd the spend so all fine by me as i get some training with it

 

aps are 7363 not 7343 my fat fingers strike again , but good new that we have the newer aps's

 

re: diy/guest byod access did you use layer 3 to segregate off the byod devices from your networks/servers or do you just use the RUckus guest module

 

will contact net-ctrl tomorrow

 

many thanks all again

 

matt

 

 

I did ours. Tell the boss you're an expert and pocket the £4000. Its a walk in the park and there's plenty of great advice available on here. Heck I'll take a couple of days off and come and do it for you for £4000.

[SYNACK]

So the tracking is done from the client device? I imagine the location tags measure the signal strength from the various access points and triangulate their position from those, then report back via WiFi to a central server. It sound like the sort of thing you could do yourself with a Raspberry Pi or similar, although probably way less power-efficient. Is there some way of measuring signal strength from the access points themselves so you don't have to run any client-side code?

 

Not sure on this, there is a setting in the ruckus controller to enable the use of the tracking tags. They use a different standard than 802.11abgn which is much lower power and can transmit a limited amount of data, some I think include gps to increase accuracy but this kills battery way quicker, there are also tags rated to high temperatures. I think the triangulation is done either by client software configured by the user or the ruckus system with adequate information of wap locations. Some of them appear to have stuff like call or assistance buttons that look quite cool. I have not implemented it myself so my knowledge is limited to what I have read but I seem to be far more forthcoming with it than @neilmac.

[neilmac]

Sorry I am at a meeting I will post about RTLS later