Resit GCSE Maths & English - Really?

[occamsolutions]

OK, I'm not a teacher, maybe I'm not qualified to comment on this, but really? There are students that will never pass a GCSE in either subject, at least not without an unfair amount of coaching. I’m not sure I understand the huge focus on academia for every student; we need to accept that we’re not all the same and that some people are more adept at other subjects (like the arts, humanities, music etc).

I happened to excel at Maths and Science, I did not find art and languages easy at all, one of my friends back then was the complete opposite; he was a skilled artist and excellent at drama. I guess my point is that we are all different and this latest nonsense from the Government does not take that into account.

 

Of course I’m not suggesting that Maths & English are unimportant, just that there are some kids that will never know what they might be good at because they are too busy failing to find out. I really don’t care if my mechanic can write a decent essay or solve a differential equation, I just want my car fixed, likewise I’m not too bothered if a Lifeguard can quote Shakespeare – he has a more important job to do!

 

There are many teachers on this forum and I would love to know your opinion, if you work in a successful Grammar school this might be a moot point but I would bet that anyone working in a secondary school in a deprived area would tend to agree with me.

 

If I had to campaign for one thing in schools it would be to have a more inclusive curriculum that catered for the non-academic kids without any sense of shame. For some kids, Music might be a more important subject than Maths!

[CAM]

Maths and English are two subjects we frankly take for granted. They are core skills that affect everything we do, whilst I wouldn't care if my mechanic can solve advanced equations I'd certainly care that he measures the right amount of oil for the car, read the part numbers correctly and can add up the bill at the end.

[Andrew_C]

I'd certainly care that he measures the right amount of oil for the car, read the part numbers correctly and can add up the bill at the end.

 

Oh a mechanic can add your bill up all right!

 

You hit on the point I was about to make; everyone needs a basic standard of literacy to function in today's society. Even if only to read and fill in benefits claim form. There won't be anyone to do it for them!

[X-13]

You hit on the point I was about to make; everyone needs a basic standard of literacy to function in today's society.

 

GCSE isn't basic English/Maths...

[occamsolutions]

I obviously agree that Maths & English are extremely important, my point is that there happen to be some kids that just cannot make the grade in one or both subjects. So what should happen to those kids? We just keep making them resit constantly? It would be like me re-running the 1500m in the hope of achieving an acceptable time, or re-sitting Art until I hit a C grade - it will never happen!

Also, a basic level of English does not necessarily equate to a C grade at GCSE but that is what has been proposed - we just keep making them resit until they achieve.

[witch]

GCSE isn't basic English/Maths...

 

Maybe they need a basic competency test in English and Maths for those people

[sted]

Maybe they need a basic competency test in English and Maths for those people

 

sounds like a plan. For instance english ( subject i got d's in) I can write and read weell enough but what i remember from english lessons was evaluating books writing poetry which tbh are not imo at least particually usefull "life skills" i honestly cant remember the last time i needed to compose a sonett or review a book ive read. Granted my spelling isnt great and i can trip up over gramer but it generally gets the point across

 

Maths that i can do (gcse b) but again ive never needed trigonometry since leaving school and all i can remember about it is Some Old Hags Can Always Have Tankers Of Ale (sin oposite hypoternuse, cosign adjacent hyportrnuse, tangent opposite adjacent) and have no idea what to do with it after that lol.

 

Yes people need to be FUNCTIONALLY numerate/literate but gcse is beyond that

[ButterflyMoon]

I for one would never pass a numeracy competency test. I have very severe dyscalculia and the very thought of doing any kind of numerical testing would freak the hell out of me. I have however managed over my life to find strategies that work for me. What do we do for the kids like me who CANNOT make the grade?

[tmcd35]

Maths and English are two subjects we frankly take for granted. They are core skills that affect everything we do, whilst I wouldn't care if my mechanic can solve advanced equations I'd certainly care that he measures the right amount of oil for the car, read the part numbers correctly and can add up the bill at the end.

 

GCSE isn't basic English/Maths...

 

Must admit that I agree somewhat with the OP. These are too subjects I think we place too great an importance on compared with other subjects. In a similar way we seem obsessed with lumping the three sciences together as if someone good/interested in Physics is automatically good/interested in Chemistry or Biology. It's like the previous Labour governments obsession with >50% in going to university.

 

There was a news story this morning about bringing back national service for 18-26yr olds (I think). While I didn't agree with the proposed implementation, I certainly agree with the sentiment.

 

There must be better ways of educating our kids than force feeding them quadratic equations or shakespeare?

 

P.S. I got a D in English after doing a 1 year resit in college, up from an E the first time round - still got a uni degree with out it!

[X-13]

What do we do for the kids like me who CANNOT make the grade?

 

You go work in the mines.

[ButterflyMoon]

@X-13 dinny think so!!

[difinity]

If your mechanic has qualifications then you can be assured he's done some maths to get it. We covered both physics type maths covering acceleration, volume, mass etc and also electrical maths V=I/R etc.

 

The only time i remember using maths in the job was working out tappet shim sizes and clearance on a diesel engine.

[CAM]

If browsing a CV, which of these look better? "Grade C English & Maths" or "Level 8 Key Stage 3 English/Maths" No employer will care what you did in Year 9 but they certainly care about GCSE grades and beyond.

 

Even if you think you don't need the qualification, it will help further down the line. You may even be using the skills from these two qualifications without realising, hence why we take them for granted.

[tmcd35]

If browsing a CV, which of these look better? "Grade C English & Maths" or "Level 8 Key Stage 3 English/Maths" No employer will care what you did in Year 9 but they certainly care about GCSE grades and beyond.

 

What about "3yr plumbers apprentiship with NVQ college day release and basic English & Maths" vs. "GCSE Grade E English & Maths (after 3 attempts before being kicked out of education at 18)"?

 

Not saying that the subjects don't offer valuable skills, just unsure of the obsession with everyone have to pass at a high GCSE standard. For a lot of people a basic Economics or Accountancy course would be more beneficial than GCSE Maths.

[CAM]

But not everyone takes an apprenticeship, a vast majority of students I have seen go through the process have taken the GCSE -> A-Level route with the possibility of going on to more stuff at uni.

[DrPerceptron]

I don't agree with NVQ Hairdressing or Motor Vehicle here.

 

Fail a unit/test? Try it again. Failed? try it again. Failed? try again. it goes on and on. Funnily enough we had a 100% pass rate for NVQ.

[tmcd35]

But not everyone takes an apprenticeship, a vast majority of students I have seen go through the process have taken the GCSE -> A-Level route with the possibility of going on to more stuff at uni.

 

The key word be majority not everybody. The arguement being why force everybody to get above a certain grade regardless of their academic ability or if the subject holds any relevance on them personally (thus the example)? And does it devalue the grade by doing so?

 

Try a more personal example,

 

High school GCSE - B Office Technology, C Maths, 2xC Science, E English

College GCSE - B Computing, D Engish, D Law

College BTEC - National Diploma Computers Studies

 

So 5 GCSE's grade C and above including Maths. Grade D in English.

 

Do I really need to get a grade C in English? If so, why? Bear in mind I then went on to university without getting that particular GCSE, or any A-Levels.

[occamsolutions]

Thanks for the comments, it's good to hear other opinions. To be honest, if I ran a building company I would rather see a vocational qualification in bricklaying than an A* in English & Maths. All I'm trying to say is that it's not for everyone and just because you fail at these subjects does not make you a failure.

 

We try to fit every student through the same education system with the same emphasis on the same subjects (pretty much, Maths, Language, Science, Humanities, Arts, Sport - roughly in that order), this has been going on since compulsory education started - for some it just doesn't work. Some kids' skills maybe in the exact opposite order with Maths & English last!

 

I have spoken to teachers in a local school, it's catchment area is pretty deprived, they have about 70% EAL students - not one of them disagreed with me on this.

 

One teacher told me that when presented with an exam paper some kids just put their head on the table and stay that way until the end, they just do not have a chance of passing and they know it. So here's an idea for those kids, how about we try to find out what they are good at and encourage that instead?

 

If you judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree it will spend it's whole life thinking it is stupid. - Albert Einstein.

[elsiegee40]

A friend's daughter is studying nursing for which they must pass a maths skills test... it's quite important to be able to work out percentages for calculating drug doses for example.

 

She passed first time with flying colours and then spent the rest of her first year coaching others who could not get to grips with it all. Those who still hadn't passed by the end of the first year were kicked off the course.

 

Basic maths skills are more important in many jobs than we realise.

 

This has made me remember an incident a few years ago when I was acting as TA to a year 4 maths class doing measurements:

Boy slams his pencil down on the table. "I ain't doing this. My dad ain't got not qualifications. I don't need to do it"

Me: "Your Dad is a builder. Even he had to learn how to measure things"

[tmcd35]

Basic maths skills are more important in many jobs than we realise.

 

This has made me remember an incident a few years ago when I was acting as TA to a year 4 maths class doing measurements:

Boy slams his pencil down on the table. "I ain't doing this. My dad ain't got not qualifications. I don't need to do it"

Me: "Your Dad is a builder. Even he had to learn how to measure things"

 

Interesting anecdote. I'll happily admit I've used Pythagoras more than once when measuring up for projectors. And algibra is pretty core to any programming I've done. Can't say I've found a use for quadratic equations yet though - certainly don't help solve the Countdown numbers games, that's for sure.

@X-13 was right - GCSE is not basic English/Maths. After year 9 how much of either subject does everybody really need to know?

[occamsolutions]

It's true Maths is very important (and, yes I do realise how important it is in many jobs!) but I haven't made my point well enough. So what do we do with kids that simply cannot make the grade? We can either put them in the "failure" bin or we can see what they may be good at and focus on that whilst continuing to teach Maths & English at a basic level.

 

Maths is a beautiful subject, I've even used Pythagoras to calculate time dilation but only because I'm a sad geek. I also enjoyed Shakespeare! For non-academic jobs you need a basic grasp, you don't need GCSE level Maths. You need the basics of English, you don't need to quote Shakespeare.

 

A builder can measure things without a GCSE Maths grade!

 

I actually don't think that much of the curriculum is very relevant to everyday life and the skills needed, I've heard most people say that they've never needed half of what they were taught at school; surely if that's the case then the curriculum needs revising.

 

I think teachers do a fantastic job in often very stressful environments (I couldn't do it!), I just think that much of what they are told to teach isn't particularly useful for most people; in fact the only people it's very useful for is those that go on to teach it.

[elsiegee40]

Interesting anecdote. I'll happily admit I've used Pythagoras more than once when measuring up for projectors. And algibra is pretty core to any programming I've done. Can't say I've found a use for quadratic equations yet though - certainly don't help solve the Countdown numbers games, that's for sure.

@X-13 was right - GCSE is not basic English/Maths. After year 9 how much of either subject does everybody really need to know?

I had the SOHCAHTOA calculus going helping to caluate the length of the stretchers for a 3 legged stool that my sister was making a few years ago.

 

It was interesting: My sister, my husband and I all came up with the same answer, but by completely different methods. We all have A Level Maths.

[AMLinington]

When I saw this on the news I rolled my eyes and sighed. I agree that it is a very bad plan. Don't get me started on the value of academic subjects vs vocational and skills-based courses - I could rant for hours. A good, solid vocational programme could be really productive and worthwhile for students of lower academic ability or simply differing skillsets and to ignore this in favour of forcing pupils to take GCSEs over and over again is pointless - what will happen once a theoretical student reaches 18 and the government can no longer force them to stay in school? What if they haven't passed by then?

 

I agree that basic literacy and numeracy skills are important, but you don't need a GCSE. When I was at school there were different levels of Maths GCSE - Foundation for the lower ability, Intermediate and Higher. I got an A in my mock and was encouraged to take the Higher but I was scared of flunking out so took intermediate and came out with a high B (B was the highest grade you could get at Intermediate). I'm numerate enough to have obtained a Degree in Geology, a PGCE and I work in networking (broadly speaking).

 

I was having a lively debate in the car the other day first with my best friend and then with LeBoyfriend - both of whom struggle with dyslexia. LeBoyfriend went back to night school to try to get his GCSE and still couldn't get past an E having obtained a G the first time around and I KNOW that he tried really hard but struggled and became angry and disillusioned and forcing thousands of dyslexic and dyscalculic (sp?) pupils to struggle again and again with the GCSE is cruel and pointless.

 

I think a literacy and numeracy test testing basic life skills should be mandatory but writing compare and contrast essays on Christina Rosetti poems and Shakespere plays is not productive to anyone.

 

I also think pupils should be taught in classes that cater to their abilities rather than in year groups, but that is another topic entirely.

[Andrew_C]

Send me a CV without both at C or above, or with grammar like some of the posts above, and it won't get past the waste paper basket.

[Nixon77]

Yes, Maths & English are very important. I passed my English exam first time, But I had to resit my maths exam twice before I got a C.