To R2 or not to R2...

[Koldov]

Hi all,

 

Have two DC's, one 2003 and one plain 2008. The 2003 holds the roles, but with the end of all kinds of support happening for 2003 and XP we need to move up a bit.

 

I'm not moving to 2012 as I'm on my own (with minimal experience and nobody to back me up if it goes wrong) and thinking that might be too much of a culture shock anyway. I'm hoping R2 will just be a more feature filled version of the 2008 server I have now and I'm ok (ish) with that.

 

Can anyone give me a guide (if needed) for an inplace upgrade or anything I should watch out for, as I cannot see myself being able to do a full fresh install. Any reasons I shouldn't do this etc...

 

Is there an upgrade disk or is it a full R2 disk that can just upgrade 2008?

 

Kol.

[CyberNerd]

A fresh install is usually *easier* than an upgrade !

Less to go wrong. Less to debug.

[Koldov]

A fresh install is usually *easier* than an upgrade !

Less to go wrong. Less to debug.

 

Yeah, I guess. Being a bit naive probably, just hoping it would be like an upgrade/service pack affair, so I could chuck a disk in and after a reboot have the same old server with a few more whistles and bells...

 

I mean it doesn't hold much, it's a DC, does DNS, print server and holds a massive amount of user data (and although it could be fully backed up (needs a totally clean local disc, not networked for 2008?)), seems a bit of a faff. It's only a couple of years old though I think, so isn't too full of cr*p to go wrong.

 

Kol.

[cpjitservices]

I'd say A New Install, if you back data up make sure you backup the permissions - or make sure you know what they are supposed to be set too.

[tmcd35]

R2 is 64bit only, so if your 2008 install is 32bit then it's a reinstall only I'm afraid - can't be upgraded

[Koldov]

I'd say A New Install, if you back data up make sure you backup the permissions - or make sure you know what they are supposed to be set too.

 

OK, thanks. Not too sure about those. There are quite a few shared folders and I don't know a quick way to tell who has permissions for what! Plus I am half way through migrating home folders from the 2003 to 2008 server.

 

R2 is 64bit only, so if your 2008 install is 32bit then it's a reinstall only I'm afraid - can't be upgraded

 

Yeah, it's 64 so no worries there

 

Kol.

[Duke5A]

I'm going to assume you've got your shares on a separate volume from the OS drive. File level permissions will stay intact and you can export all of the shares from the registry and re-import them once you have 2008 R2 up and running. I had to do this a number of years ago when a Windows NAS took a dump.

 

Saving and restoring existing Windows shares

[apeman]

Sounds like your making more work for yourself by trying to be lazy.

[Koldov]

Sounds like your making more work for yourself by trying to be lazy.

 

Is this directed at me?

 

If so, maybe you could you please elaborate on the steps involved in a fresh installation versus an upgrade, including decomissioning, installation time, recomissioning, rebuilding it's roles such as DNS, DC, print server (including reinstalling drivers etc), data store shares including exporting registry keys for permissions (as above) and I'm sure loads of stuff I've forgotten or don't even know about!

 

As I have never installed a server from scratch, I'm sure I mentioned that I'm a bit reticent to do so due to lack of experience. Obviously this stuff is easy for experienced technicians, but I'm not one of those and I'd like to keep opportunities for mucking up to a minimum. In fact I'm quite happy with what we have, it works fine for what we need it for and if my hand wasn't being forced I wouldn't be doing any upgrade at all.

 

However, although I do know that fresh installs are 'best practice' I'm not confident taking down a server and completely reinstalling it. This is why I posted here to get some constructive replies, help and advice on whether an upgrade is possible and if there are any major reasons why it shouldn't be done.

 

Kol.

[mac_shinobi]

I would be interested if someone could post back with a reasonable guide from start ( what to backup whether permissions / shares and how to backup said items ) to doing the re-install once you have done everything you need to before re-installing and then also the steps to get it re-installed and if there are any gotcha's to watch out for and how to do the re-install in what process / order etc )

@Arthur or anyone else

@Koldov - Am in the same boat as you with regards to not having done much in the sense of re building a server etc so I too would like to know how it is done.

[tmcd35]

As I have never installed a server from scratch, I'm sure I mentioned that I'm a bit reticent to do so due to lack of experience. Obviously this stuff is easy for experienced technicians, but I'm not one of those and I'd like to keep opportunities for mucking up to a minimum. In fact I'm quite happy with what we have, it works fine for what we need it for and if my hand wasn't being forced I wouldn't be doing any upgrade at all.

 

Kol.

 

Although, I wouldn't advice "experimenting" with a production server - especially if it's the schools sole server, I can understand why you'd be a bit reticent - I will say this, you'll never get the experience until you actually do it! (Something I'm very found of reminding the techs here).

 

Before doing anything, build a couple of virtual machines, set up test DC and experiment. See what happens when you do a direct upgrade, try and work out the steps to doing a fresh install or a migration. Once you've seen it working in a test environment you'd be much more confident in which way to go and how to do it on the live environment.

 

As for instructions, there are some old threads around here. I'm sure I posted to one or two in the past.

[Michael]

I wouldn't put in 2008 Server now as this is essentially 'Vista Server', with 2008 R2 being 'Win 7 Server'.

 

You could argue if you waited a little longer, you could jump straight to 2012 R2 at the end of this year, which should (in theory) be pretty solid and give admins the tools they need.

 

As others have stated 2008 R2 is 64Bit only and although it's a long process, it's one many admins end up doing or buying in support if they can't do it on their own. There's no shame in doing this, everyone starts off somewhere. 2003 Server is being retired next year along with XP, so you still have some time to play with yet

[mac_shinobi]

As for instructions, there are some old threads around here. I'm sure I posted to one or two in the past.

 

Any chance you could find and post the URL's / links to said threads so we know which ones you are talking about / referring to

 

Thanks @tmcd35

[Koldov]

Although, I wouldn't advice "experimenting" with a production server - especially if it's the schools sole server, I can understand why you'd be a bit reticent - I will say this, you'll never get the experience until you actually do it! (Something I'm very found of reminding the techs here).

 

Before doing anything, build a couple of virtual machines, set up test DC and experiment. See what happens when you do a direct upgrade, try and work out the steps to doing a fresh install or a migration. Once you've seen it working in a test environment you'd be much more confident in which way to go and how to do it on the live environment.

 

As for instructions, there are some old threads around here. I'm sure I posted to one or two in the past.

 

I have no experience with VM's and no spare machines to run them on and no time really to deal with that learning curve before I am forced to do the upgrade. School finishes Tuesday next week and I am planning to start the upgrade on the Wednesday as I won't have access to them for most of the holiday.

 

I wouldn't put in 2008 Server now as this is essentially 'Vista Server', with 2008 R2 being 'Win 7 Server'.

 

You could argue if you waited a little longer, you could jump straight to 2012 R2 at the end of this year, which should (in theory) be pretty solid and give admins the tools they need.

 

As others have stated 2008 R2 is 64Bit only and although it's a long process, it's one many admins end up doing or buying in support if they can't do it on their own. There's no shame in doing this, everyone starts off somewhere. 2003 Server is being retired next year along with XP, so you still have some time to play with yet

 

Yeah I've heard that 08 is based on Vista and R2 is based on 7, but a Vista to a 7 upgrade is viable also. Anyhow, the original post is that we have 08 already and I'm hoping that I can just upgrade it to R2 in the first instance with a minimum of fuss, down-time and stress, considering I have minimum time to do this and a million other jobs over just a few days in the summer.

 

Thing is, my hand has been forced a little. Our other DC that runs SIMS is 2003 and support for this ends after this summer not next year in line with Microsoft. Unfortunately I have been a little late in finding this information out so am trying to do this as quickly and easily as possible due to the now necessary admin PC upgrades and all the other work moving SIMS over will cause...

 

Plus there may be no shame in sourcing outside help, but if I can possibly do it then that is a bonus. It's all relative, let's face it I am employed to be the tech (so I should be trying to accomplish this if at all feasible) and also due to various reasons there are as always budget constaints.

 

Kol.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Koldov
Extra info...

[apeman]

Why do you want to upgrade the 2008 box?? as you said the 2003 box is your problem.

 

Like everyone else has said an upgrade is not advised especially if your just hopping for a few features.

 

You do realise there will be down time during the upgrade?? this could be a good couple of hours depending on hardware, its not just a windows update. If this is your only DNS, print server and primary file server you will have a lot of issues/complaints and make your network pretty much unusable.

 

As you didn't install either server you don't know how either of them were setup (each admin has there own way of doing things) and there could be a number tweaks or patches that have been made to fix problems before your time, these may catch you out during the upgrade. This is why good documentation is key.

 

You won't find many good guide on upgrades out there as everyones network is so different and everyone will have different issues to deal with so following there guide could cause serious issues for you.

 

If i were you i would sit down plan what you want to do and what you want the outcome to be don't just jump in.

 

Download virtual box on your pc or even take a classroom pc home if allowed and spend a few weeks over summer teaching yourself windows 2012 and active directory. Hint forget the gui in server 2012 and look into powershell, you can bring a new domain controller up in less than an hour with only about 10 commands.

[Firefox]

As you say your 2008 box is already a DC, maybe a less risky approach for yourself, while still allowing for some learning and experience would be as follows:

 

1) Migrate all roles to the 2008 server (very simply to do, and documented in many places online)

2) Ensure the 2008 server runs the DNS (if it doesn't already)

3) Point any and all devies at the 2008 server for DNS

4) DCpromo out the 2003 server

5) Rebuild the 2003 server to 2008 R2

6) Raise the domain\forest functional level to 2008 R2

7) Promote the new 2008 R2 machine to be a DC.

 

This should ensure you have continuity, should remove your risk of killing the 2008 server, and gives you the time to implement the new server without risk

Edited July 22, 2013 by Firefox

[tmcd35]

@Firefox has the general order of work. We have done a few server upgrades/replacements for local primary schools over the past couple of years. The one thing I would add is TIME. Seriously, you need lots of it. We spend weeks on this. At a rush I think we can do it in a fortnight. That's not to say it can't be done quicker, I just wouldn't want to. Each step needs time to make sure the changes have fully replicated across the domain controllers and are working as expected before going on to the next.

 

This is especially important for the DNS, Global Catalog, and FSMO roles. I've borked AD's in the past by not taking it slow.

[Koldov]

As you say your 2008 box is already a DC, maybe a less risky approach for yourself, while still allowing for some learning and experience would be as follows:

 

1) Migrate all roles to the 2008 server (very simply to do, and documented in many places online)

2) Ensure the 2008 server runs the DNS (if it doesn't already)

3) Point any and all devies at the 2008 server for DNS

4) DCpromo out the 2003 server

5) Rebuild the 2003 server to 2008 R2

6) Raise the domain\forest functional level to 2008 R2

7) Promote the new 2008 R2 machine to be a DC.

 

This should ensure you have continuity, should remove your risk of killing the 2008 server, and gives you the time to implement the new server without risk

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

 

My only issue with this, is having moved all the roles and data to the 2008 machine and demoting the 2003 machine (actually the reason it's still 2003 is that it's ancient, so not sure it will cope with 2008 R2 anyway. It's Windows folder is WINNT so that may give you some idea of its age - already upgraded from NT or 2000 at some point!) we would then be running everything on one 2008 DC. This then at some point will have to be R2'd and mean I will be in the same position if not worse, when doing an upgrade on the server that is doing everything meaning I will have to then move it all back to the 'new' R2 server!

 

I hope you see my point, or have I missed yours?

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

Kol.

[Firefox]

I can see your point about the 2003 server being very old and may not make a 2008 R2 server. But what's you plans for the box long term? I mean as you say 2003 is going, and if this server is not able to be upgraded, are you not going to be in the situation whereby you're running on 1 DC anyway? unless you plan to buy new hardware, in which case that would make you're whole plan easier anyway.

 

You ultimate end goal must surely be to run on 2 x 2008 R2 DC's? (assuming you want to run on more then 1 DC)

[Koldov]

Yes hopefully, 2 x DC's (I know that's best practise). The 2003 will have to be replaced at some point I know. It's just that the 2008 taking the roles has always been the plan, I just figured it would be better if I R2 it now while it's not totally mission critical (2003 being the role holder at the moment) and then transfer the roles, rather than transfer it now and then back again if/when we get a new one to replace the 2003 box or have a bigger worry when I R2 the 2008 box when it will then be holding all the roles....

 

Agh, that looks so much more complicated typed out than it sounds in my head!

 

Kol.

[Firefox]

In all honesty, knowing the 2003 server will have to be replaced I would go down that route first. As I believe a couple of people mentioned already, upgrading the 2008 DC could bring about new issues you may not have the experience to resolve?

 

Before even attempting the upgrade of the 2008 server you would need to dcpromo it out, upgrade and dcpromo back in. As well as possibly looking at Schema updates in the process.

 

My advice for now....forget the R2 upgrade completely. Look to get another 2008 DC up and running on new kit. This will take your urgency away from going to R2, and you can spend your time planning this.

 

This is possibly a little overkill, but if your just looking to get off 2003 with as little risk as possible, this in my view would be it

[Koldov]

In all honesty, knowing the 2003 server will have to be replaced I would go down that route first. As I believe a couple of people mentioned already, upgrading the 2008 DC could bring about new issues you may not have the experience to resolve?

 

Yes, I see. This was kind of my reasoning behind doing the R2 upgrade now, while the 2003 box was still 'running the show' giving me time to post all my new problems here lol

 

My advice for now....forget the R2 upgrade completely. Look to get another 2008 DC up and running on new kit. This will take your urgency away from going to R2, and you can spend your time planning this.

 

This I think would be an ideal solution and it makes a lot of sense. However, I'm not sure I can squeeze the school budget right now to get a new server in quickly and the urgency was really due to that after the summer, SIMS (which runs on the 2003 box) will not be supported on it anymore (although I see that plain 2008 64-bit is still supported as at Autumn 2013 so it's an option to leave it alone I guess). If I have to move SIMS to a plain 2008 box I guess I can, however I will still dread upgrading it at some point in the near future I'm sure.

 

Thanks again for your replies

 

Kol.