MIS Due Diligence and Security

[ConceroUK]

This is an interesting article which doesn't have great things to say about progresso:

Are school MIS systems up to the job? | Adaptsoft Blog

[GREED]

It is interesting... and was reading with great enthusiasm until the last sentence mentioning there is a gap for a feature rich inter connected... xyz... at low cost.

 

Wow

 

I'm afraid that to have a system so feature rich and keep up to date with the strains the dfe place on suppliers, and be this one stop shop for everything data and meet schools request requirements so it isn't bad mouthed of edugeek (tips hat at Capita)... and be scalable to handle 1000s of schools and in LA or Trust situations... All command a large support team which ultimately commands a decent cost.

 

It all has to be paid for end of the day! Most of the time people forget the large support costs associated with something as important as an MIS in schools.

 

So, yes everyone would like to get a lot for not a lot of costs... reality doesn't work like that.

 

To borrow their analogy, it is like buying a car, for the rules to suddlenly say it must be able to turn left, but not right unless you have the handbrake on, the 3 months later you must also be able to flip the car on command, travel over water but no longer allow to you use a sat nav.

 

Also, due to the huge costs involved in just getting something like this to market, means there has to be a decent ROI and so you do need to target a large audience. Saying you will build someone to meet niche schools, what 5, 10, isn't worth the investment. Then comes how do you convince a school to buy what is such an important system these days from a supplier that has one 2 schools on their books. Regardless of how good the software might look... believe me entering this market is a tall order!

 

I don't disagree with some points put forward but this seems to come from the educational side and doesn't consider at all the business prospects at all!

Edited February 3, 2014 by GREED

[GREED]

Gotta say, I really do think this will be a turn around year for Progresso

[ConceroUK]

Gotta say, I really do think this will be a turn around year for Progresso

 

What makes you suggest that?

 

We've been looking at a number of cloud based suppliers and wanted some assurance that as its a cloud based service with sensitive data it has been accredited in some way. The only one which I can find which fits that is Arbor as they are on the CloudStore. Arbor Education Adaptive Management Platform | CloudStore | Gov.UK

[ConceroUK]

We've arranged a meeting with Bromcom however I've just looked at their website and it looks like something from the 80's. Does the product look modern?

Bromcom Computers Plc - Software

Edited March 24, 2014 by vikpaw
removed quoted advertising

[GREED]

Looks very much like a government framework that no one knew about. Which is nothing new. This really wouldn't make me blink one way or another to be honest.

 

Why is a government accreditation important? I'm not being awkward but I know what hoops you had to go through for the IMLS framework... and if @PhilNeal is about he will testify this too, frameworks are tools to make procurement easier not necessarily to give the suppliers on it a positive rubber stamp for whatever the framework is about... In the real world everyone will take several sources of information particularly customer reviews.

 

No disrespect to Arbor I know the guys there well and they do have a decent solution. But to suggest that RM, Bromcom, AL, Scholarpack... etc, are not appropriate to store sensitive information in the cloud is a big leap, just because they are not on this framework. And they all have web based solutions now...

Edited February 3, 2014 by GREED

[pcstru]

We've arranged a meeting with Bromcom however I've just looked at their website and it looks like something from the 80's. Does the product look modern?

Looked OK to me but I'll be quite honest and say I wasn't that interested in exactly how modern it looked, more whether it would do what we need it to do in a way that is reasonably efficient.

[ConceroUK]

Looks very much like a government framework that no one knew about. Which is nothing new. This really wouldn't make me blink one way or another to be honest.

 

Why is a government accreditation important? I'm not being awkward but I know what hoops you had to go through for the IMLS framework... and if @PhilNeal is about he will testify this too, frameworks are tools to make procurement easier not necessarily to give the suppliers on it a positive rubber stamp for whatever the framework is about... In the real world everyone will take several sources of information particularly customer reviews.

 

No disrespect to Arbor I know the guys there well and they do have a decent solution. But to suggest that RM, Bromcom, AL, Scholarpack... etc, are not appropriate to store sensitive information in the cloud is a big leap, just because they are not on this framework. And they all have web based solutions now...

 

I was surprised not to find the big players on there however I suppose they probably feel there's no need as they're already on the IMLS: Supplier listing - Schools

 

I think it can give schools confidence to change to a cloud based MIS product if it has been accredited in some way. Just because they're a well known company shouldn't mean that schools should automatically assume that the product they are buying into is adequate especially being cloud based and holding very sensitive data.

 

Do the schools that you support use a cloud based MIS product? We are keen to know about Bromcom, Arbor & Progresso.

[GREED]

I was surprised not to find the big players on there however I suppose they probably feel there's no need as they're already on the IMLS: Supplier listing - Schools

 

This proves my point that 2 suppliers on this list no longer have a product to sell, and one has changed hands (and so no longer should be on the list according to my recent chat with their BDM!)

 

I think it can give schools confidence to change to a cloud based MIS product if it has been accredited in some way. Just because they're a well known company shouldn't mean that schools should automatically assume that the product they are buying into is adequate especially being cloud based and holding very sensitive data.

 

Hummm, I do see your point but if you are a softwarehouse and you are going to invest in a big way, to not be compliant and so very quickly fall down either through law or through your customer base throwing the book at you, would be the most monumental school-boy error. But in fact I return to a quote from Mr Neal, which is truth, that you could get on the IMLS framework without actually having a product (and so having your product tested), which does make a mockery of the whole thing, and I suspect you could get away with just as much on most frameworks.

 

Do the schools that you support use a cloud based MIS product? We are keen to know about Bromcom, Arbor & Progresso.

 

I work for an integration specialist company, I don't support schools as such but work with most of the major MIS suppliers and supporting system suppliers. I gather from reading your website you are scoping to see who is worth your investment to support and offer services to customers?

 

FYI I know of 16 suppliers/systems that operate in the UK (or will be in the next 6-12 months).

Edited February 3, 2014 by GREED

[ConceroUK]

Yes, we're looking on behalf of the schools we support. Both primary and secondary are interested in a cloud based solution and I'm just trying to get a handle on the market.

 

Of the 16 suppliers, how many are cloud based and would you recommend any from your own opinion?

[GREED]

Yes, we're looking on behalf of the schools we support. Both primary and secondary are interested in a cloud based solution and I'm just trying to get a handle on the market.

 

Of the 16 suppliers, how many are cloud based and would you recommend any from your own opinion?

 

I'd suggest having a look at this first:

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/131286-edugeek-mis-challenge.html#post1122047

 

Most on that list are web based solutions (cloud is a misappropriated term from most suppliers!). I think the survey will answer that too.

 

I'd happily respond privately about my experiences with systems, you have a good list so far of who to talk to. The survey too will be an interesting indicator, particularly who sees it as worthy to respond to (given how popular and public the results will become it is in their interest to respond). I personally have to be a little careful as I do work with most suppliers too, hence the objective nature of the survey. It is hard too because I am a big believer in there is a right MIS for the right school, no one MIS suits all schools, not by a long way, and that is not just between phases. You'll be sensible to have an array of the larger suppliers in your portfolio, like those you have mentioned currently, and keep tabs on the market to see who is emerging and who is falling away.

Edited February 3, 2014 by GREED

[David_Grashoff]

... and if @PhilNeal is about he will testify this too, frameworks are tools to make procurement easier not necessarily to give the suppliers on it a positive rubber stamp for whatever the framework is about......

Greed - Phil is having a well earned holiday so there may be a slight delay in him responding.

[GREED]

Greed - Phil is having a well earned holiday so there may be a slight delay in him responding.

 

I know, thanks @David_Grashoff he decided to tell me Friday night, so decided to give him a break too from my usual light hearted bashing (and ironically be supportive of Capita for a bit!). Indeed, these messages were intended for his return!

[TheScarfedOne]

Did Bett break @PhilNeal @David_Grashoff?! Sorry we never got chance to catch up this year. @GREED...interesting article and thread

[APC]

Gotta say, I really do think this will be a turn around year for Progresso

 

I totally agree - things are really looking good now - great demo at Bett this year

[vikpaw]

The list of possible features on CloudStore is massive , i guess they have to make it all-inclusive, but an interesting to read, especially that there is a 'FREE' version of Arbor....

[GeekyPete]

Regarding the Government FrameWork for MIS systems, you don't even need to have a product to get your company listed on there. That's more about due dilligence and is by no means a whitelist of suppliers. If you choose to go with someone not on the list you need to be careful. If your school puts all their MIS data in the cloud with no other way to get at the data what happens if there is an E2E situation and the liquidators pull the plug on the server farm to save on the electricity bill? Some of your due dilligence is done by the Governement if you choose from the list, you can state it as something in your favour when the inquiry happens. You MUST have a DR plan in the event of your cloud MIS suppier going belly up.

 

With that said I have one school who looks likely to go to Arbour in the next month or two. If no one else can give a first hand account of them, I should be able to soon enough. The SLT are wowed by the UI and the reports. I still need to check if we can export the data in a usable format to hold a copy on site.

 

No matter who you choose to go with you have to sit down and have a good think about what will happen if one day your supplier is no longer there. With your own server and SQL instance you always have the data to hand which gives you time to plan.

 

Because of the risk to the organisation if the MIS provider fails to deliver for whatever reason I would suggest that Due Diligence is appropriate. It's worth googling Due Dilligence checklist to get an idea of the kind of things you should be looking for.

Edited March 24, 2014 by vikpaw

[JamesWeatherill]

Hi guys,

 

Completely agree about doing your due diligence, as I used to do this for a living. Frameworks can be a good signpost in this regard, but are no substitute. For anyone interested in direct feedback to an Arbor school just get in touch with me and i'll connect you; I'm sure we'll have some schools popping up here soon as well!

[GREED]

While I agree with the points made about DD, the biggest issue I have is the difficulty of finding or accessing such information on suppliers and products (Yes, this is a plug for the MIS Challenge!). I've just been reviewing G-Cloud... my goodness what a messy site, and very unspecific to any sector.

[matt40k]

If you choose to go with someone not on the list you need to be careful. If your school puts all their MIS data in the cloud with no other way to get at the data what happens if there is an E2E situation and the liquidators pull the plug on the server farm to save on the electricity bill? Some of your due dilligence is done by the Governement if you choose from the list, you can state it as something in your favour when the inquiry happens. You MUST have a DR plan in the event of your cloud MIS suppier going belly up.

 

You say that, but I know LAs have a DR plan if Capita goes belly up - maybe that's just wishful thinking, but being on the framework or being the biggest doesn't stop you going under!

[vikpaw]

In terms of DR with Capita the code goes into escrow - but the theory there was you have the product on site with data, you need to find someone to do maintenance. Government would help with that.

For cloudy solutions i suppose i'd want to have a backup sent to me on a regular basis, and maybe, a copy of the code/software put somewhere insured so you could claim it and use the backup to set up a local install. But this would be worst case setup.

[GREED]

Ignorance here, but is there no legal protection as the owner of the data that if supplier goes under, they cannot just rip out your server without allowing you to get at the data?

 

If not, dare I say should there be?

[matt40k]

Depends who owns the servers - when a colocation provider goes under, the owner of the server has to prove they own the server before the data center releases the servers. If they rent, well I'd say you're pretty stuffed. I suspect if we're talking school data they might be bit more friendly about getting the data, but I would at least band together or behind an Academy Trust or LA. I think any good "cloud" provider would sign an agreement that they would at least let you get at the data - and remember to ensure the contract states the MIS provider will require your agreement before swapping providers! It's also worth checking out how many links they have in the chain, I mean if they rent servers off someone, who rents space off a data center - only one has to go belly up for this problem to occur!

 

Alternative route is to have a way to backup your data to something like RackSpace Cloud Files which you can control (and is in UK) - ie its your API key. I suspect some cloud MIS providers wouldn't like revealing the database however.

[GeekyPete]

You say that, but I know LAs have a DR plan if Capita goes belly up - maybe that's just wishful thinking, but being on the framework or being the biggest doesn't stop you going under!

 

Thank you for agreeing with the point I was making, The framework does SOME of the DD, it's a start no more than that.

"No matter who you choose to go with you have to sit down and have a good think about what will happen if one day your supplier is no longer there. With your own server and SQL instance you always have the data to hand which gives you time to plan."

No matter how big they are, locally installed or cloud, You need a plan. The point I was making is that this is the one area where Cloud is more of a risk than local. But local only buys you some time. If capita go under, your SIMS will still work. You may not be able to easily get the right data for the next census but you won't walk into work one day and find the whole lot gone. This isn't automatically the case with cloud either. it's not too much to ask for a schema script and a data backup so you can load your data into SQL. Event if you have to write your own reports you still have the data.

[GeekyPete]

Ignorance here, but is there no legal protection as the owner of the data that if supplier goes under, they cannot just rip out your server without allowing you to get at the data?

 

If not, dare I say should there be?

 

E2E situation if you read nothing else read the Lessons for Customers.