Learning Platform for Northamptonshire Schools

[GrumbleDook]

I have to agree with a chunk of what Steve said ... but I also agree with a chunk of your stuff ... damn, doing that fence sitting thing again.

No...I'm talking about the benefits of hosted/managed solutions over locally hosted solutions (Moodle etc...)

 

Are you talking about the T&L benefits, the TCO benefits or technical benefits?

 

The major managed solutions are up to the job and far more so than something thrown together in house by the school techie.

 

Ah ... at this point you fall down on a large chunk of your arguement. Take one of the largest implementations of virtual learning, the Open University. I am not talking about their use of Moodle ... I am talking about their use of FirstClass from Open Text. This is a very powerful environment and can have huge amounts that can be hand tailored for the needs of the institute or the courses run ... and that is what the OU have been doing for years ... having techies throwing things together. Then we get to Moodle ... one of the most heavily used environments that is based around oportunities for development, the like of which you are unlikely to get with most other VLEs (Sharepoint is slightly different to this but more on that later!) Remember that the school techie may actually be more qualified in project management than the ICT lead teacher, and have far more experience of implementing document management solutions that the school bursar. You are stereo-typing people ... a dangerous thing to do.

 

Have you actually been to a school which uses a managed solution? Before you state that they are not up for the job I suggest you go to some of the schools which have made good use of a managed solution.

 

I'll back yo on this one ... *any* solution will work. Honestly ... they can be made to work. Some may take more time, some may not have the same level of impact ... some may just be a stepping stone until the school learns what a difference learning environments can make, some are the perfect solution and don't need to be changed. It varies from school to school, but yes, I agree that managed solutions can and will work.

 

The LA when it goes through the process of choosing a preffered solution for the area it is concerned with service targets, educational needs and the ability to deliver collaboration across the LA.

 

Yep ... I can heartily agree with this ... and as much as some people here may not like me saying this, there is nothing worse that someone stuck in a school that thinks they know everything and are not willing to collaborate, and that goes across the board ... senior management, teachers, techies, governors, sponsors, parents, kids ....

 

Hosted solutions are the way forward as is clearly being shown by the market trends at the moment. I don't think the school techie has the education skills to know what a teacher or student needs.

 

Wow ... how wrong can that statement be? Whilst not every techie (be they an IT Technician, a Network Manager, an eLearning Manager, etc) is employed to specifically have a background in education or has a job description that directly ties into the educational needs or targets in a school I think you will be pleasantly surprised how many are far more switched on than you think. Lets' face it ... when you look at all the hype and buzzwords that surround VLEs and Learning Platforms you will find that they are about changing the way students learn and teachers teach. You will see phrases such as 'just in case' and 'just in time' ... we have a history of everything being taught 'just in case' ... memorising lots of information and whilst that is not a bad thing, we are now in a world where we have to take in a lot of 'just in time' information. We have to learn how to gain information and assimilate it when we need it. There is physically too much information for us to learn and remember all the facts ... we now have to learn concepts and skills and gain additional information when needed. Welcome to the world of the IT support. I can hardly find any department in a school that this is more relevant to. Why do you think EduGeek.net has been so successful? It is because it actually typifies this new model of learning by collaboration and gaining information when needed.

 

The new models of learning are also centred around independent learning. This is something else we are used to since there is a history of poor funding for training in IT Support in schools. We have *had* to become independent learners, usually at a level that would scare most people.

 

On the other hand the leading VLE suppliers employ some of the top educationalists in the UK at the moment ( I know I've met them). The top VLE's are not some sort of evil empire (certainly the VLE I personally deal with are a great group of people). Contact companies like Fronter or Uniservity, I think you will be surprised about how knowledgable their educationalists are about the needs of schools with this kind of technology.

 

Yep, I too have met most of them, had a pint or two (coke in my case) and discussed the Pros and Cons, as well as the changing needs of education. I like most of them, and agree that they are interested in teh same thing we want too. Most of them only got into the VLE business because they were interested in expanding T&L in different ways ... some have become big business, but some are still very down to earth.

 

I also feel it's very much techies keeping their jobs and protecting their little empire. I have seen schools with locally hosted solutions which have either gone nowhere or ground to a halt when the person who looks after it leaves.

 

Again ... these sweeping statements again. We can all do that. it gets done on here occasionally when a bit of teacher bashing happens ...

 

Here ... I can do it too.

 

Bloody teachers. You get a VLE sorted, you build a cool skin that the kids just love and add lots of feature to it so that the kids don't use the crud from YouTube but stick it on the in-house box instead ... Walled Gardens are so handy! ... but all you get is teachers carpin' on about "but my subject ca't be taught like that" or "If I stick all my stuff on that website it won't be the same as me teaching it from the front of my class!" .. and not forgetting "This is just a ploy by the Government to get us to make all course so they can be taught by teaching assistants and they can get rid of teachers!"

 

Those teachers ... always looking after their jobs without any thought to the school!

 

Hmmm ... doesn't sound that nice does it? Sounds very nasty in fact! And yes ... those are actual quotes from teachers (thankfully none of them were from my present school) and reflect a damn small minority.

 

Please, let's not get onto sweeping statements like 'techies protecting jobs' or 'no idea about education' ... it brings the level of discussion down to "but I'm more important than you!" and fails to cover the salient points.

 

A) Does the learning environment move on T&L?

B) Does it move on independent learning and personalised learning?

C) Is it cost effective and sustainable?

D) Does it fit into the School / LA / Regional / National vision for ICT?

 

Point me at a single VLE, whether it be provided at LA or school level, whether it is hosted internally or externally, or whether it is deployed by the in-house staff or a 3rd party, which does not meet the above or can be made to meet the above?

 

We might all have opinions about interoperability, the use of SCORM, the UI, the technologies behind the various environments ... and those are open to discussion, often with no right or wrong answer.

 

Personally, I do believe in the LA platform as the best fit for most schools. I do also believe that for some schools it is the starting point, for others it is something that is complimentary to what they already do, and for a very small minority they have to weigh up the benefits from and internal solution to a hosted solution, but considering the opportunities for collaboration and the chance of what they may be able to do in the future.

[Fedaykin]

Good I'm pleased to see i stirred things up a bit.

 

I over egged my comments to see what replys I got and on the whole not bad. I have my opinions as do other people, I'm glad that people can see all the picture.

 

The thing was I was getting fed up with all the Moodle evangalists popping up every time someone mentions VLE. Edugeek is a good forum but I do feel at times that its a marketing arm for the world of Moodle. I personally think managed solution is the best way forward but local solutions do have there place. I have seen plenty of sweeping statements about how bad managed solutions without any kind of real knowledge about the top players (notice I say top players - I think in a couple of years several of the suppliers will pull out of the market). Certainly Uniservity and Fronter are here to stay with a large customer base.

 

I agree about independant learning and I feel managed solutions offer that model, I personally once everything shakes out the managed solutions will have the largest share of schools in the UK.

[GrumbleDook]

Good I'm pleased to see i stirred things up a bit.

 

Edugeek is a good forum but I do feel at times that its a marketing arm for the world of Moodle.

 

Oh my, oh my ... one moment we have been taken over by RM, next we are a propaganda unit for PfS, we have sold our souls to Microsoft / Apple / Ubuntu ... and now we are the marketing arm of Moodle.

 

For those who remember uk.education.schools-it in it's OS war period I feel it is my duty to invite John Cartmell in to defend RiscOS as it isn't getting pushed enough on EduGeek!

Edited January 27, 2008 by GrumbleDook

[webman]

Yes I can see why schools want to be locked in to a single platform provider having to pay for anything beyond basic, additional space etc.. and putting up with basic features, not being able to have things their way. It's great how schools can access managed VLEs when their internet connection is down and also using the same username and password they do currently at the school.

 

The level of avangelism on here for Moodle is down to Moodle being a fabulous key product of an overall virtual learning platform that can be implemented for free or supported by companies if the need is required; which lets the school have complete control over their learning platform without being held to ransom by a company or LEA. If Fronter (for example) was a good product then we'd all be saying how good it is for our needs. Personally, I don't see much Fronter (for example) evangelism on here.

 

But it really doesn't matter; once the BSF steamroller arrives there will only be the managed solutions regardless of how good/bad they are.

Edited January 27, 2008 by webman

[GrumbleDook]

Ok, now for the sensible answer.

 

FirstClass has a massive user base within UK ed, with over 1 million licences for the OU alone. Moodle is still growing ... and growing ... and growing, with more LAs / RBCs giving options for schools to have Moodle *as well as* other VLEs / Learning Platforms, and Sharepoint looks as if it will be the backend for a large number of providers for the next 5 years.

 

With the way Web 2.0 is going people will expect to be able to have any environment or combination of environments and get them to talk to one another. Heck, if I can get my stuff from YouTube, FaceBook, MySpace, Twitter, EduSpaces, and so on ... and drop them into my personal Google page when I have no control over these 3rd party servers, just imagine what I can do with my own site on Sharepoint, my own Moodle box, my own FirstClass server ...

 

Restricting any school to a single solution will not work in the long term. Giving them a framework and a starting point will. *That* is why LAs are being careful about what solution they buy *and* are still keeping options open for the future.

 

My personal preference is for a Sharepoint based solution. That is mine ... I know it can work with Moodle and I know there are other things available to plug in to it too ... but I am keeping an open mind about what fits around the way my schools works and how I things work for schools in Northants. It is very much driven by the schools ... it has to be.

[monty]

I saw the NCC solution today and I'm not very happy about it.

It is just sharepoint, nothing else, even the creation tools were the free ones supplied by microsoft. I can only see that we are expected to pay for external hosting. But with only 2Gb provided we will inevitable need more storage space and no one is telling us how much that will cost. So from next march we'll have a minimum of £6000 plus storage fees on top, which could be anything.

Collaboration is hardly worth mentioning, each school has their own site with their own resources, it would only benefit students who have to move between schools, but they still have to log on to the portal. Hosting sharepoint internally they can go straight on.

Speed was also an issue which we witnessed during the demo and from comments from other schools, if it's slow now, what will it be like when the whole county is on?

NCC should have produced their own, cheaper more manageable and faster.

Or even better I think the schools should get together and create their own, several schools banding together, sharing resources would be far better financially and benefit the students and teachers too, then schools wouldn't be creating the same resources which are available in another school already.

Some people in schools tend to forget that sometimes the most expensive option is not the best and just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean its right. It is worth considering all the options however I cannot recommend NCC's solution to my school.

[webman]

I saw the NCC solution today and I'm not very happy about it.

It is just sharepoint, nothing else, even the creation tools were the free ones supplied by microsoft.

...

Speed was also an issue which we witnessed during the demo and from comments from other schools, if it's slow now, what will it be like when the whole county is on?

 

I know exactly what you mean, this all sounds very familiar but I can't think where.

[GrumbleDook]

I saw the NCC solution today and I'm not very happy about it.

It is just sharepoint, nothing else, even the creation tools were the free ones supplied by microsoft. I can only see that we are expected to pay for external hosting. But with only 2Gb provided we will inevitable need more storage space and no one is telling us how much that will cost. So from next march we'll have a minimum of £6000 plus storage fees on top, which could be anything.

Collaboration is hardly worth mentioning, each school has their own site with their own resources, it would only benefit students who have to move between schools, but they still have to log on to the portal. Hosting sharepoint internally they can go straight on.

Speed was also an issue which we witnessed during the demo and from comments from other schools, if it's slow now, what will it be like when the whole county is on?

NCC should have produced their own, cheaper more manageable and faster.

Or even better I think the schools should get together and create their own, several schools banding together, sharing resources would be far better financially and benefit the students and teachers too, then schools wouldn't be creating the same resources which are available in another school already.

Some people in schools tend to forget that sometimes the most expensive option is not the best and just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean its right. It is worth considering all the options however I cannot recommend NCC's solution to my school.

 

Collaboration within the site is a bit more extensive that you think at first look. Due to the way the hierarchy of the sites is built you will be able to share resources at a higher level as well as giving selecting users from other schools access to sub-sites within your site. The whole permissions thing is hard to do in a single day.

 

Yes, we only have free tools at the moment, but trying to find *any* seriously decent tools that are free or that are simple enough for the bulk of teachers to use is hard. Opus Pro is nice but can work out very expensive, and is just another cost to pass on to schools.

 

Unfortunately NCC does not have the resources, in either data centres or staffing, to sit down and build it's own solution. Having sat and gone through the Becta LP Framework you would have a pretty similar issue as you have mentioned above about tools for creation.

 

The speed ... yes, we know about it and are working on it.

 

We will be encouraging schools, once they have made a start on resources, to share them with other schools. For some schools this is a touchy subject as they don't like sharing ... others see a learning platform as a perfect way of sharing.

 

There are other resources coming online too, those from ShirelandLearning.net, and we are looking at for other content that can easily be put on. The NEN has put out a request for bids for creation of Digital Learning Resources and details of how schools can go for this will be in the NCC factsheet this week. If you don't get access to this I will send it on as requested by NCC schools.

 

I did not manage to make it down today due to school commitments but if there is any specific area you want to talk about please feel free to PM me, or I can pop over to have a chat. I will also raise any concerns you have at the team meeting on Friday.

[monty]

Before you read this, please note I am not against VLE's at all, but I do want my school to get the best it can for all areas of the school. So I'm not getting at anyone, I'm just puzzled really at the decisions made and the costs involved.

 

Collaboration within the site is a bit more extensive that you think at first look. Due to the way the hierarchy of the sites is built you will be able to share resources at a higher level as well as giving selecting users from other schools access to sub-sites within your site. The whole permissions thing is hard to do in a single day.

 

I still can't see many instances where you would want someone from another site to access yours and the fact that it is external and does not use the students own document area or internal email stops collaboration within the school which is eminently more important. We also lose the ability for admin staff to collaborate effectively because this solution only encompasses teaching staff and students, the school is bigger than that and needs something that ties us all together rather than puts in more separation.

 

Yes, we only have free tools at the moment, but trying to find *any* seriously decent tools that are free or that are simple enough for the bulk of teachers to use is hard. Opus Pro is nice but can work out very expensive, and is just another cost to pass on to schools.

No problems at all with free tools, I was talking about having to pay for something that we can get for free and being told that we are getting something special which this is not. And digital workshop, who produce Opus, will do a deal if a few schools get together, we did one with them a few years ago.

 

Unfortunately NCC does not have the resources, in either data centres or staffing, to sit down and build it's own solution. Having sat and gone through the Becta LP Framework you would have a pretty similar issue as you have mentioned above about tools for creation.

I don't profess to know anything about NCC funding, but a managed server at an ISP does not cost too much even with sharepoint already installed and it's likely that this is what NCC's solution is doing. We did have a look at creating a school sharepoint, encompassing a VLE last year and were quoted £8000-£9000 for a professional solution, once created can be used with any number of schools. Even a couple of techs to support are not expensive. Comparing those prices to the 300+ schools that would be paying for NCC's current solution is so much more cost effective for NCC to create their own.

If we work it out at secondary school prices of £7-£9 per person, we could be looking at between £9000 and £23000, band 3 or 4 schools together and you have full time technicians looking after a managed solution that fits the schools, is cheaper, and can provide more storage space.

Can NCC not see that they are not buying any product, they are buying a layout, which anyone can create, and server hosting an a high price. I could understand it if was 1 schools managed VLE, but a whole county choosing it is just not sensible.

 

speed ... yes, we know about it and are working on it.

Thats the problem with a solution you do not manage yourself, and how long are they going to take to fix it?

 

will be encouraging schools, once they have made a start on resources, to share them with other schools. For some schools this is a touchy subject as they don't like sharing ... others see a learning platform as a perfect way of sharing.

Most schools will already have scorm compliant resources which could be shared. I know there are difficulties getting teachers to share, I don't understand it myself techs share resources and information all the time and it makes life much easier.

 

are other resources coming online too, those from ShirelandLearning.net, and we are looking at for other content that can easily be put on. The NEN has put out a request for bids for creation of Digital Learning Resources and details of how schools can go for this will be in the NCC factsheet this week. If you don't get access to this I will send it on as requested by NCC schools.

Yea we could add these resources to our own VLE.

 

did not manage to make it down today due to school commitments but if there is any specific area you want to talk about please feel free to PM me, or I can pop over to have a chat. I will also raise any concerns you have at the team meeting on Friday.

 

My biggest concern is financial, and what we actually get for the money. Why do we still not have a definite pricing structure when we are expected to start using it in a few weeks? My school has been seduced by the free years usage, I do not want us to get stung with a big bill because we have started using this VLE, even the free years usage just seems like a bit of a snare. It feels like SLT's have been targeted and techs pushed to the side because it's known that we would have arguments that need solid answers.

 

I don't really know what your position is GrumbleDook and how much input you have had to this. I'm willing to be convinced, but I need, and speaking to other schools, we all need a lot more information about this. Teaching staff are more easily swayed by a demonstration because they haven't seen anything like it before and dare I say a little ignorant of what is available. I know what a sharepoint front end looks like so I need to know different things about this VLE. Specifically cost,space,training and support and to be honest I don't think we are asking too much to be told, any company that we get in would be asked the same questions.

 

Have a nice day anyway and I'm a nice guy really.

 

Monty

[GrumbleDook]

I'm the Director of IT of one of the other secondary schools in Northants, I am also seconded to work for NCC on a number of areas including tech consultancy. I was part of the working group that looked at solutions and have been part of the group on the EMBC procurement.

 

I wish it was just a case of the costs you mentioned ... but once you put software licences, SLAs, support contracts into it all then it gets damned expensive.

 

For those not from NCC it is worth explaining that the council did have a central support team, but sold it to Capita ... so we now have no central support. The ICT in Schools team have drafted a variety of people wot work with them to make sure they have the expertise on the various things they are doing, but when you have 330+ schools you can't please everyone.

 

Some schools are using their own, and this is intended to be complimentary to that ... but I am always happy to chat with people about it all.

 

@monty

PM me or email me, mine's the bottom email address on the 'enable' business card.

Edited January 31, 2008 by GrumbleDook

[monty]

 

@monty

PM me or email me, mine's the bottom email address on the 'enable' business card.

 

I thought it might, I'll have to find it, left the card at home today.

 

By the way is that picture of you?

 

monty

[GrumbleDook]

The avatar? Yes ... a sunny afternoon at London Zoo ... followed by a shopping trip down Regent Street looking like that.

 

I like to make people smile.

[monty]

I wish it was just a case of the costs you mentioned ... but once you put software licences, SLAs, support contracts into it all then it gets damned expensive.

 

Just to point out that most schools already have sharepoint licences, certainly all that were at the meeting yesterday did have, or they can be added to a school agreement, last quote was £210 for the server. CAL's are included in backoffice CAL and any additional for external access can be purchased at about £1.20 depending on reseller.

Most schools already have on site support and any ISP will give an SLA on a managed/hosted server. If there is an SLA in place why has the speed issue not already been addressed?

I think the proof that it can be done is shown by the fact that many schools already have a functioning sharepoint or VLE.

 

Were there many technicians who have direct experience of sharepoint consulted on this, or was it all done at a management level?

 

Sorry it sounds like I'm having a go, I'm really trying hard not to.

Edited January 31, 2008 by monty
Cos I don't want an argument

[sahmeepee]

For those who remember uk.education.schools-it in it's OS war period I feel it is my duty to invite John Cartmell in to defend RiscOS as it isn't getting pushed enough on EduGeek!

 

I didn't see that until today, but I must admit it raised a titter

[GrumbleDook]

Just to point out that most schools already have sharepoint licences, certainly all that were at the meeting yesterday did have, or they can be added to a school agreement, last quote was £210 for the server. CAL's are included in backoffice CAL and any additional for external access can be purchased at about £1.20 depending on reseller.

Most schools already have on site support and any ISP will give an SLA on a managed/hosted server. If there is an SLA in place why has the speed issue not already been addressed?

I think the proof that it can be done is shown by the fact that many schools already have a functioning sharepoint or VLE.

 

Were there many technicians who have direct experience of sharepoint consulted on this, or was it all done at a management level?

 

Sorry it sounds like I'm having a go, I'm really trying hard not to.

 

After meeting with Microsoft there were not significant enough schools on the Schools Agreement for that to be taken into account, but deals were done on a variety of things to reduce the cost. Originally the plan was not to include exchange in all of this, but cost savings on other areas allowed for it ... and yes, I know there are a number of secondaries with their own mailservers ... but there are many, many more primaries (who don't have the support) who were on Mirapoint or Easymail and desperate to get off!

 

I wish it was the case that we could have a significant number of all the stakeholders involved at every point of procurement, but it is not feasible.

 

the 'Meet the bidder' morning went well but could have been better supported with a few more taxing questions put forward but sometimes the information about these events don't get mentioned to the right people. A survey was done on here about VLEs that fed into the discussion ... but it was the educational benefits of each platform that was the crux of the discussions ... not the technical aspect ... and I hate to say it, but that is the key thing about VLEs and Learning Platforms.

 

Back to the Schools Agreement stuff though ... one possibility that was raised was paying for it for all schools in the county without giving a choice. Believe me when I say that this would have been one of the most contentious things any LA could have done I am understating things ... especially with the possibility of the OFT not being happy about it all in the slightest.

 

Sharepoint techies ... yes, schools already using were talked to, including those using WSS v2 and v3, as well as Sharepoint 2003 ... finding schools with sharepoint 2007 is hard so we had to look at other implementations.

 

Most schools *don't* have on site support ... but the majority of Secondaries do have on-site support, but not very many with Sharepoint skills ... in fact I can only think of 4 that had any serious experience of it before September.

 

The speed ... yes, it is being dealt with ... at a very major level. However, consider the history of Northants ... is the problem the ISP? is it the individual configuration of the schools (since so many of the secondaries are now outside of the standard network build)? Is it the Managed Service Supplier? ...

 

It has been painful trying to iron these out ...

 

I know it seems like I am just stood here on the defence and trying to knock the various points down ... I am not doing it to say it is perfect and will be all rosy ... I am just trying to say that the tip that a school NM generally sees about this sort of thing really is just the tip. For every point that you raise there are 4 raised by Schools Forum ... and that is before you even get Legal or Finance involved.

[monty]

Thanks Grumbledook for trying to answer my questions and arguments. I'm sure you are looking for the best for all schools and perhaps we will have a clearer picture of the benefits once it is in use.

 

Monty

[GrumbleDook]

I didn't see that until today, but I must admit it raised a titter

 

Yes ... it was 10 years old in 2006 and was on the decline then ... from the hay days of 2003 to a paltry average of just ove a post a day last month ...

 

I miss Dog and Fat Max, `p and Rob Moir (terrible lurker that he is!), Steve Rochford and not forgetting Covey ... guaranteed to bright your day.

 

I don't even bother in the Staffroom anymore ... I wonder if Helen is still pinching all the biscuits!

[GrumbleDook]

Flippin' eck ... no sooner did I post but I get an email berating me for missing people out of that list ...

 

At the risk of going OT ... I must remember that Dagza, Tosca925, SpuffMonkey, SteveT (and I know I have missed more) should all be remembered for stupidly high post counts and using more than one email address in their news client so they didn't appear to ohigh up in Dagza's stats table.

[GrumbleDook]

Thanks Grumbledook for trying to answer my questions and arguments. I'm sure you are looking for the best for all schools and perhaps we will have a clearer picture of the benefits once it is in use.

 

Monty

 

No worries ... There are plenty of opportunities for people with ideas to come forward and pass them on.

 

We *do* need to have a serious hands-on day for permissions and audiencing ... and that is where you learn about how the collaborative bit fits together.

 

New thread posted about Sharepoint.

[torledo]

After meeting with Microsoft there were not significant enough schools on the Schools Agreement for that to be taken into account, but deals were done on a variety of things to reduce the cost. Originally the plan was not to include exchange in all of this, but cost savings on other areas allowed for it ... and yes, I know there are a number of secondaries with their own mailservers ... but there are many, many more primaries (who don't have the support) who were on Mirapoint or Easymail and desperate to get off!

 

I wish it was the case that we could have a significant number of all the stakeholders involved at every point of procurement, but it is not feasible.

 

the 'Meet the bidder' morning went well but could have been better supported with a few more taxing questions put forward but sometimes the information about these events don't get mentioned to the right people. A survey was done on here about VLEs that fed into the discussion ... but it was the educational benefits of each platform that was the crux of the discussions ... not the technical aspect ... and I hate to say it, but that is the key thing about VLEs and Learning Platforms.

 

Back to the Schools Agreement stuff though ... one possibility that was raised was paying for it for all schools in the county without giving a choice. Believe me when I say that this would have been one of the most contentious things any LA could have done I am understating things ... especially with the possibility of the OFT not being happy about it all in the slightest.

 

Sharepoint techies ... yes, schools already using were talked to, including those using WSS v2 and v3, as well as Sharepoint 2003 ... finding schools with sharepoint 2007 is hard so we had to look at other implementations.

 

Most schools *don't* have on site support ... but the majority of Secondaries do have on-site support, but not very many with Sharepoint skills ... in fact I can only think of 4 that had any serious experience of it before September.

 

The speed ... yes, it is being dealt with ... at a very major level. However, consider the history of Northants ... is the problem the ISP? is it the individual configuration of the schools (since so many of the secondaries are now outside of the standard network build)? Is it the Managed Service Supplier? ...

 

It has been painful trying to iron these out ...

 

I know it seems like I am just stood here on the defence and trying to knock the various points down ... I am not doing it to say it is perfect and will be all rosy ... I am just trying to say that the tip that a school NM generally sees about this sort of thing really is just the tip. For every point that you raise there are 4 raised by Schools Forum ... and that is before you even get Legal or Finance involved.

 

I think that the issue of speed and reliability of a managed service is always contentious when an authority 'outsources' a solution. A large authority might have the data center, enough scalable storage, staffing and a sufficiently robust WAN to manage the solution themselves, in which case they can be in control of most of the cogs that can impact on how effectively the application performs. But even an authority with the abillity and funds to 'DIY' may hit a brick wall which is the design of individual internal school networks.

 

 

A Local authority's management ends at the permiter typically - so the switching infrastructure of the school is beyond their control...an LA might find their WAN and data centre can run the managed application optimally, but a teacher connected to a fully populated hub four 100mb links down (albeit rare, i've heard such horror stories ) from the edge router could be experiencing performance problems that is attributable to poor performance on the school network, and not a WAN or central server issue. Ofcourse having the server as close as possible for each user at each school is the ideal - but for reasons outlined eariler a centrally hosted option has to be presented to schools.

 

But if an LA do provide a hosted option the more in control an LA is of the managed service the better they can manage performance issues. By outsourcing to LP+ there's an additional SLA in the chain that has to be enforced. I'd imagine there's a lot of finger pointing and pass the parcel when you have this kind of setup.

[GrumbleDook]

As with all RBCs there is a Standard Network Build for EMBC, presently undergoing review as Synetrix take things over.

 

This is done to let schools know what is supported *all* the time and helps to understand what else may be supported *some* of the time.

 

The present SNB does not include a school having their own firewall, using NAT, having an internal filter which may be inline, hosting domains other than .sch.uk based domains ... and so on. This is why it stops at the perimeter. (Hands up those Northants schools who do *not* use the SNB!)

 

NCC does not have a dtat centre other than that provided by EMBC ... it does not have an Education Techncial Team but has been able to for a team that have a wide range of educational and technical abilities ... but we don't do tech support for schools. You either employ your own staff or have a contract with a 3rd party ... in Northants this is usually Capita .ICT.

 

We might all wish it to be different, but you have to work with what you have got, and the team are working hard and whilst the technical aspect is being dealt with, it is the educational aspect that will come through in the months to come.

 

IMHO

[webman]

I wouldn't worry too much about it all really. It won't be our problem once the BSF managed services take over

[GrumbleDook]

I wouldn't worry too much about it all really. It won't be our problem once the BSF managed services take over

 

It'll be a good 5 years before it is even thought about for Northants ... and a good number of schools will have had work on them under PFI by then anyway ... so they will get missed off to some extent.

 

If you are worried about managed services under BSF, get a job in Northants ... you will be safe for some time.

[HodgeHi]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned in the thread but it was huge so sort of skimmed through it :-)

 

We are now currently looking into the VLE things as it is soon to be a requirement or something like that.

 

We were sort of being pushed towards the Shireland gateway and for a primary school the costs were just too great. We would of still been willing if we saw more of the features it had to offer. We had a user and pass but could only see a limited amount of it. We needed to see more as we were not sold on what we had seen.

 

The final nail in the coffin though was that this was supposed to be a VLE that the pupils could access from home. Now being a Primary School our kids could only use what the Parents had at home. This means that if the parents ran anything other than IE they could not access their own VLE since sharepoint requires IE.

 

To us this was a major negative against the purchase as we know that a few of our pupils used iMacs at home. And that is not to say that a few may be using Linux or firefox. And with the advent of the EEEpc now here and more subnotebooks under £200 aimed at a laptop per pupil then with Linux built in there is no point.

 

Just my opinion.

 

PS How have many of you developed your moodle installations?

I would be interested in having a look see around if someone didn't mind. I won't nick or break anything. I promise :-)

[kmount]

Sharepoint doesn't require IE. - It just 'works' better with it particularly the Exchange OWA.

 

I'm on Linux now and have done ALL of our VLE work on linux with no problems at all.

 

We use LP+ (Shireland...) and although I'm not overly impressed with it, its free to us for a while before we see whether we bother with it.

 

I'd have sooner gone with moodle and hosted it in-house, but I am but a lowly cog in the wheel of management/politics.