[acs] Birmingham Schools - Where are you going next

[Trapper]

Hello Birmingham Schools,

 

With the coming discontinuation of Facility CMIS I was wondering what other Birmingham Schools are considering doing?

 

I've had a look at SIMS and it all looks fairly standard (you use one MIS system and all that), but I like the idea of Progresso, and lets be honest sooner or later SIMS will probably release a cloud system.

 

I know SIMS has a presence in a very large percentage of UK schools, but I've also heard the cost implications if we ever become an academy.

 

What are other schools thinking of doing?

 

One final question about SIMS - Does it have an equivilent of ePortal (web based system for staff for reporting and attendance)?

 

/Traps

[PaulHarrington]

Hello Birmingham Schools,

 

With the coming discontinuation of Facility CMIS I was wondering what other Birmingham Schools are considering doing?

 

I've had a look at SIMS and it all looks fairly standard (you use one MIS system and all that), but I like the idea of Progresso, and lets be honest sooner or later SIMS will probably release a cloud system.

 

I know SIMS has a presence in a very large percentage of UK schools, but I've also heard the cost implications if we ever become an academy.

 

What are other schools thinking of doing?

 

One final question about SIMS - Does it have an equivilent of ePortal (web based system for staff for reporting and attendance)?

 

/Traps

 

I would like to make one small correction to the above quote. There are no plans to discontinue Facility and ePortal in the short to medium term.

 

For anyone that would like more information on Progresso and the plans that Serco Learning have, there is an event on the 12th July in conjunction with Link2ICT and Service Birmingham at which we will be able to answer any specific questions.

[Sivadam]

..... I know SIMS has a presence in a very large percentage of UK schools, but I've also heard the cost implications if we ever become an academy.....

If you go with SIMS now then you will, presumably, be buying your licences direct with Capita?

If you do that then they can be novated to the new Acadamy, should you go down that route, for a nominal fee!

[NorthernSands]

If anyone were to go down the SIMS route, then I know that the SMIS support team down there offer a pretty comprehensive service.

[itwasntme]

"novated to the new Academy"? Our school is becoming an academy in September and after waiting a little over a week for a quote we have been told the cost to license Sims under our academy name (and new DfE number) comes to a little over £22k + the cost to migrate the data and a fresh round of 'maintenance'. I am told that we do own the license rather than it being LA owned.

[Little-Miss]

We have SIMS and as far as i know there is no ePortal/Gateway thingy available to us yet...

[SkywOrca]

Little-Miss, if you are looking at getting a home access solution then Link2ICT can help, either with SLG or VPN. You should ideally log a call with us and someone will be able to talk through the options available and costs.

 

Btw, could someone point out to me how you put a @mention into a comment in Edugeek? Seen it several times now, but I can't figure out how to add one!

[NorthernSands]

Btw, could someone point out to me how you put a @mention into a comment in Edugeek? Seen it several times now, but I can't figure out how to add one!

 

@SkywOrca; I just type it out manually, but I might be doing it wrong 'cause it doesn't always work!

^^^^^^^ Did it work?!

 

EDIT: Yes!!!

Edited June 27, 2011 by NorthernSands
Yes!!!

[SkywOrca]

Arghh, confused... I tried that but it just looked like a mess in the preview screen, so I gave up... Perhaps I should just persist with it. Looks like what you did worked though, since it shows up as another mention in my mentions tab.

 

Incidentally, I should have said this earlier. If anyone has concerns about what's happening with your MIS provision, or wants to talk through options available if you're looking to become an Academy, Link2ICT are available to talk to. If you log a case with the Service Desk, one of our consultants will be able to discuss all the options open to you and give advice on the alternatives.

[Little-Miss]

I've already got VPNs thanks Skyw0rca

 

you have SLG?

[SkywOrca]

Probably best if you log a call with us so that someone can talk to you directly. I'm not an SLG person, so I can't give any accurate info. Log a call with the Service Desk and ask to speak to Mark, he should be able to help.

[Sivadam]

"novated to the new Academy"? Our school is becoming an academy in September and after waiting a little over a week for a quote we have been told the cost to license Sims under our academy name (and new DfE number) comes to a little over £22k + the cost to migrate the data and a fresh round of 'maintenance'. I am told that we do own the license rather than it being LA owned.

If you could not novate, then you were presumably originally with an LA for SIMS. If you did own the licences you should have been able to novate them! Phil has stated this on here a number of times now!

As I said in my original response - if they bought in as a school now with capita (i.e. bought the licences directly from Capita, for the school) then they could novate them if they went down the Academy route later!

[Sivadam]

We have SIMS and as far as i know there is no ePortal/Gateway thingy available to us yet...

If you have SIMS then you can buy into SLG either for Self Hosting, LA Hosting or Capita Hosting - dependent on your circumstances.

[tli]

While there's plenty to consider before deciding on the next step, Birmingham schools need to remember why they migrated to CMIS in the first place. SIMS has always remained a good option but wasn't flexible enough for our needs.

 

SIMS has indeed moved on in the last few years but there are key areas where CMIS is still better. For instance, most Birmingham secondaries have assessment set ups that, because of their complexity, would not be possible to implement fully in SIMS.

 

From what I've seen, Progresso looks like it will be an excellent product although we will need to see the costs etc before deciding on whether it is good value for money. The other question will be, of course, will all the flexibility that CMIS gives still be in Progresso?

[PhilNeal]

"novated to the new Academy"? Our school is becoming an academy in September and after waiting a little over a week for a quote we have been told the cost to license Sims under our academy name (and new DfE number) comes to a little over £22k + the cost to migrate the data and a fresh round of 'maintenance'. I am told that we do own the license rather than it being LA owned.

 

If you own the licence you should not have a quote of this size - feel free to PM me and I will check.

 

LAs reclaim any unused maintenance from us and they may pay it back to you - most LAs do. This is detailed in our academy booklet.

 

You may or may not require our services in order to implement the necessary changes to your databases. If you are a phase 1 academy ask the DfE if you can keep all the data including the old number - if you can you won't need us to help you process very much. Phase 2 academies can keep all data and the DfE is trying to reduce the admin burden further by reducing the changes but advice is variable!

 

The FMS service saves many days of keying in data if you want to replicate much of your existing data - you can't just use the old structures because they do not fit an academy's requirements. The service also helps staff understand the new reporting requirements that come with academy status.

Edited June 28, 2011 by PhilNeal

[emma_24_uk]

We are certainly going to the Serco 'Progreso' demonstration on 12th July at Birmingham FC and will be looking with interest at this as the way forwards.

 

SIMS seems really expensive to move to as the quote a colleague has received doesnt include any of the migration costs or more than the most basic training. I would think that moving more than the basic CTF transfer which is quoted for would not only be very time consuming but could also cost ££££ and probably not result in a complete data set.... nightmare!

 

As we use really complicated assessment structures I will be interested to see if serco are able to migrate all the data and structures straight into their new system as re-creating them in SIMS for example would be really time consuming (a friend uses assessment manager and I know!!)..

 

Just as a thought, are Link2ict offering us the opportunity to look at other systems, or are we being sold SIMS due to the Capita ownership... it certainly seems that capita are trying to get schools to sign up now... are they worried about the competition?

 

We are not yet looking at being an academy but its probably on the horizon - why do we have to re-licence at all when the only difference is a change of legal status - we dont want anything else from the mis supplier - just a new licence and the support we have now! - seems like the big boys see this as a licence to print money

[CAM]

As stated, the relicencing for SIMS only happens if you move from LA control to Academy if the LA hold the licence. This is because the school doesn't own the licence, it belongs to the LA who get them cheap for a no transfer of ownership deal. When dropping out of LA control to Academy status, they are no longer eligible to use the LA's licence and thus have to purchase a new one.

 

On the other hand, if you buy a licence from Capita then it will be yours and a new one won't be required when changing to Academy status. This means if the school plans to move to academy in the short term, do not buy a SIMS licence from the LA no matter how cheap it is. You will get stung on transferring to Academy status!

 

EXAMPLES:

 

School 1 is LA controlled with CMIS. They plan to move but will change to Academy in Sept 2012 so they hold off on migration and stick with CMIS for Sept 2011. They pay the high SIMS fee for a brand new licence only once when they carry out the migration to SIMS at the same time as transferring to Academy status in Sept 2012.

 

School 2 uses CMIS and decides to go to the LA in Sept 2011 for a cheaper SIMS licence and migrate their MIS to SIMS straight away. It seems a smart move but the governors want to change to Academy status in Sept 2012, so when that date rolls round they have to pay for a SIMS licence again! The school has effectively paid twice for SIMS, once on the cheap LA licence and again for the not-so-cheap new licence when they drop from LA control. The decision to jump in with an LA licence to set up for cheap is effectively a false economy!

 

However, had School 2 approached Capita direct then they'd only pay a "small" admin charge (about £200) to move to Academy status as they own the licence, not the LA, and thus don't need to purchase a new one.

 

Also there is precedent on here somewhere of using old SIMS licences dating to before the school started using ones from the LA. They are still valid for transfer to academy status if the school owns these licences but you need to fight the matter with Capita's support teams who will try say otherwise so hunt through your filing cabinets to see if a predecessor used SIMS and still has a licence!

Edited June 29, 2011 by CAM

[meastaugh1]

If you own the licence you should not have a quote of this size - feel free to PM me and I will check.

I contacted Capita to enquire about licensing costs associated with academy conversion last month. Assuming we own the licence, I was told if we retained our DofE number the school could novate the licence, but a change of DofE number would result in SIMS having to be re-licensed. Is this advice still valid?

[emma_24_uk]

relicencing for SIMS only happens if you move from LA control to Academy if the LA hold the licence. This is because the school doesn't own the licence, it belongs to the LA who get them cheap for a no transfer of ownership deal. When dropping out of LA control to Academy status, they are no longer eligible to use the LA's licence and thus have to purchase a new one

 

Why does it matter who holds the licence - It doesnt cost £1000's more as its the same licence for the same software... Rip OFF!... I can understand if we wanted to go to the supplier for support that there would be an additional cost, but we wouldnt !

[Timetable]

SIM's has a learning gateway which is not that teacher friendly to be honest. If you use moodle for your VLE there are alot of suppliers who provide an E-Portal type web frontend. We are currently looking at a webanywhere product and it looks very good and they can give you a demo of how it integrates with SIM's.

 

We moved from CMIS to SIM's this time last year and although i still think CMIS does alot more.... SIM's does what we want efficiently and taking up less of my time....

 

Well apart from the options part of CMIS, no that was an outstanding piece of software... If there are any CMIS people here look at providing that as a standalone piece of software...!!!!

[CAM]

Why does it matter who holds the licence - It doesnt cost £1000's more as its the same licence for the same software... Rip OFF!... I can understand if we wanted to go to the supplier for support that there would be an additional cost, but we wouldnt !

 

It's in the first paragraph of my post

 

As stated, the relicencing for SIMS only happens if you move from LA control to Academy if the LA hold the licence. This is because the school doesn't own the licence, it belongs to the LA who get them cheap for a no transfer of ownership deal. When dropping out of LA control to Academy status, they are no longer eligible to use the LA's licence and thus have to purchase a new one.

 

It sucks but according to Capita, offering a discount for existing SIMS schools would be "anti-competitive"...

[emma_24_uk]

SIM's has a learning gateway which is not that teacher friendly to be honest. If you use moodle for your VLE there are alot of suppliers who provide an E-Portal type web frontend. We are currently looking at a webanywhere product and it looks very good and they can give you a demo of how it integrates with SIM's.

 

Thats partly my concern - we use eportal really intensivley and learning gateway doesnt seem very user friendly and why pay extra for something we currently get included in our costs..

 

 

We moved from CMIS to SIM's this time last year and although i still think CMIS does alot more.... SIM's does what we want efficiently and taking up less of my time....

 

Is sims as locked down as im under the impression it is? last time I looked we could do far more on assessment in facility and its easier to integrate with internal systems without paying an additional licence for access to our own data?

 

It seems that on a pricing front capita are offering a range of prices depending upon who you are...

[Timetable]

That is true, Capita's pricing is varied... we pay two different prices for lesson monitor due to covering a middle school and a high school. (were still 3 tier this far north as we have been forgotten)..

 

SIM's is locked down quite a bit and as i stated can do far less than CMIS, but provides enough of what we want and the new SIM's Discover will add some very useful features for us.

[Sivadam]

Thats partly my concern - we use eportal really intensivley and learning gateway doesnt seem very user friendly and why pay extra for something we currently get included in our costs..

Is sims as locked down as im under the impression it is? last time I looked we could do far more on assessment in facility and its easier to integrate with internal systems without paying an additional licence for access to our own data?

It seems that on a pricing front Capita are offering a range of prices depending upon who you are...

Capita have to deliver some of their products as separate modules/add ons! Because of their large share of the market they are not allowed to package them all together, as smaller companies can do. It would be classed as unfair business practice if they did try to packet everything into the one product!

 

And I would be very interested to see what CMIS can do in Assessment that AM7/PA/Discover cannot do. The staff in this school who have worked in CMIS Schools are very surprised at how accessible the data is as compared to their previous schools. Of course this could represent how well each of the school's MIS is configured (or not!).

 

As for SLG not being User-friendly, it seems to do it's job here. We have had to move from the Capita Hosted service to the LA Hosted Service, as part of the BSF 'deal', and for a while we have had to do without a service that we have used since it's initial launch in October 2008. I can assure you that the staff and parents have really missed the service during this transition!!

Edited June 30, 2011 by Sivadam

[emma_24_uk]

Thanks for the replies = Ill be really interested to see what progresso can do at the event on the 12th and understand that link2ict will be hosting a sims event in the autumn term so will be good to compare features and total cost etc.

 

I guess with the new hosted progresso there wont be a need for an extra parental access component at all tho? - anyone know?