multimedia (flash)

[DanW]

Slightly strange question .

 

 

Does anyone know of any software that will improve the performance of flash on thin clients/ Terminal server that doesn't include using citrix.

 

 

Thanks

 

Dan

[dhicks]

Does anyone know of any software that will improve the performance of flash on thin clients/ Terminal server that doesn't include using citrix.

 

I had a look at this at the start of the summer - these couple of threads might come in handy:

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/59027-fat-v-thin-v-multi-seat-client-showdown.html

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/59056-rdp-sound-latency-rdesktop-client-server-2003-terminal-services.html

 

My main finding was that upgrading to Server 2008 R2 helped a lot, as did using a reasonably new machine as a thin client - we even tried a (web based) video editing application on an Acer Nettop used as a thin client, and it worked so well we forgot it was a thin client. The older RM all-in-one machines and the Dell 2400s struggle somewhat with YouTube video and sound - I've got 20 newer RM Ones turning up sometime this week to use as thin clients, we'll see how those get on.

 

I did think about using 2X, but found performance with Server 2008 R2 to be good enough for us in the end:

 

http://www.2x.com/

 

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David Hicks

[kmount]

Very much depends upon the type of thin client you are using as several manufacturers offer their own methods.

 

Each to their own on performance though, depends on what you're looking for.

[VirtueTechnologies]

Hi Dan,

 

Its not a strange question at all, infact its the question that we are answering the most frequently at the moment.

 

The backend only needs to be 2008 R2, this has just about every feature that Citrix has, but without the license fees.

 

The way that 2008 R2 works is that it offloads the Flash/Multimedia and Video to the client device. Whether this is a Laptop, PC or Thin Client, it aims to host render this locally on the chosen device to give the best performance. The client MUST have a minimum of RDP 7 for this to work, otherwise, you'll just get a slideshow with a bit of sound when you play anything back. Because the server is relying upon the Thin Client's local processing power, a high powered processor and a Windows Embedded or Windows Embedded 7 operating system are essential.

 

The best device that we could find and the only devices that currently support Windows Embedded 7 on the market are from 10ZiG Technology, the RBT-616v and the RBT-617v both have the Intel Atom Processor and have been fine tuned for RDP 7.

 

Where are you based?

 

Here is a Case study on one of our deployments:

 

http://www.virtuetechnologies.co.uk/files/StEdmund-ThinClient-Success-uk-virtue.pdf

 

Please let me know if you have any questions, we do offer free 30 day evaluations on these

 

Thanks

Best Regards

Edited August 12, 2010 by VirtueTechnologies

[DanW]

is this a purely hardware solution and not software (apart from win 2k8 r2? )

 

 

Dan

[dhicks]

The way that 2008 R2 works is that it offloads the Flash/Multimedia and Video to the client device. Whether this is a Laptop, PC or Thin Client, it aims to host render this locally on the chosen device to give the best performance. The client MUST have a minimum of RDP 7 for this to work, otherwise, you'll just get a slideshow with a bit of sound when you play anything back. Because the server is relying upon the Thin Client's local processing power, a high powered processor and a Windows Embedded or Windows Embedded 7 operating system are essential.

 

Do you have any benchmark figures to illustrate how much better the performance of RDP 7 is over RDP 5.2, i.e. a specialised thin client device with RDP 7 firmware vs. a standard PC running Linux and rdesktop? It's just that YouTube video and sound performance seemed to be fine in our tests, and we were simply using a plain Windows Server 2008 R2 server and Linux with rdesktop clients. We even did some web-based video editing, which worked so smoothly we forgot we were on a thin client. I'm sure an RDP 7-capable client lets you do even more (full-screen video, I imagine?), but I'd like to know just how much extra performance you'd get for your money.

 

--

David Hicks

[VirtueTechnologies]

Hi David,

 

10ZiG have a range of different devices including a great Linux image with the Rdesktop 1.6 client and this is packaged into the same hardware as the devices that I mentioned earlier. For customer's evaluations, we have offered both the Linux and the WES/WES 7 solutions to them so that they have a choice.

 

Every time the choice has been towards the Windows devices, I think that this is because of the needs of the schools to have as close to a PC performance as possible.

 

Essentially, I put this down to Microsoft communicating better with Microsoft and I think that this will continue with RemoteFX and SP1 when it is released early next year as Microsoft state that RDP 7.1 will be required for this, which will only install on a Windows 7 or Windows Embedded 7 device - like the RBT617v.

 

There are of course many additional benefits to using RDP 7, including easy print, aero, true multi-monitor support and USB redirect to name a few. The USB redirect has been of particular importance to our customers who use Thin Clients with Smart Boards and their 2008 R2 server as they eliminate PCs from their network.

 

I think we should get an evaluation unit out to you to put to the test, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

Thanks

Best Regards

[VirtueTechnologies]

Hi Dan,

 

Yes, no license fees, you even get the 10ZiG manager FREE of charge.

 

Thanks

Best Regards

[DanW]

I have dropped you an email

[dhicks]

10ZiG have a range of different devices including a great Linux image with the Rdesktop 1.6 client and this is packaged into the same hardware as the devices that I mentioned earlier.

 

We would want to run our own Linux image, booting via PXE. That way we could have a locally-installed web browser, with RDP being used for everything else. If, say, 80% of computer usage these days is actually via a web browser then that should take a lot of work off of the TS servers.

 

There are of course many additional benefits to using RDP 7, including easy print, aero, true multi-monitor support and USB redirect to name a few.

 

Drat - does USB redirect not work with rdesktop?

 

I think we should get an evaluation unit out to you to put to the test

 

To save the trouble of posting physical objects around, why don't you just give us some benchmark figures demonstrating how one of your RDP 7 clients compares against an equivilant device running rdesktop?

 

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David Hicks

[VirtueTechnologies]

USB redirect for mass storage maybe, but redirect for a Windows Driver based Smart Board device, that would be good.

 

I'll put in a request to the 10ZiG R and D teams to see if they have these figures for you.

 

Thanks

Best Regards

[flyinghaggis]

We would want to run our own Linux image, booting via PXE. That way we could have a locally-installed web browser, with RDP being used for everything else. If, say, 80% of computer usage these days is actually via a web browser then that should take a lot of work off of the TS servers.

 

Do you know if there are any Linux images/distros out there that are specifically designed for that purpose (to boot up running RDP software and offer connections to a list of terminal servers) as that sounds like it could be really useful? Would be nice to have the option to "convert" a PC into a thin client. Especially if it could be done temporarily off a PXE boot on an ad-hoc basis.

Edited August 12, 2010 by flyinghaggis

[VirtueTechnologies]

Hi Flyinghaggis,

 

10ZiG can help you here too, They partner with 2X and they have a thin client that has been optimised for this.

 

Also if you want to run a browser and a RDP session on a Linux desktop, this can be done also through a device like the RBT402 or RBT602.

 

There are two options, boot via PXE, or have the image pre installed and configured on the device - this gives you additional management, driver and wireless options.

 

Thanks

Best Regards

[dhicks]

Do you know if there are any Linux images/distros out there that are specifically designed for that purpose (to boot up running RDP software and offer connections to a list of terminal servers)

 

Thinsation is designed for exactly that, although I prefer Slax. We currently have Slax configured with no Window manager, it just boots straight up in to a full-screen RDP client, you don't even know it's a Linux-based machine. The user doesn't need to select from a list of servers, you can get DHCP to do (crude) load-balancing.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

USB redirect for mass storage maybe, but redirect for a Windows Driver based Smart Board device, that would be good.

 

Good point. I think there's Smart drivers available for Linux - you could have the IWB driver running locally on Linux, I guess.

 

I'll put in a request to the 10ZiG R and D teams to see if they have these figures for you.

 

Thanks. I just got to thinking: if I understand correctly, there's an RDP 7 client available for Windows XP. Is the RDP 7.1 client going to be released for Windows XP too? Either way, if using RDP 7 increases performance, is that performance increase enough to offset using an older machine? If so, you could buy second-hand Windows XP Home machines off eBay (£30-a-time in bulk) and set those up as thin clients, maybe replacing the harddrive with a small solid state device.

 

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David Hicks

[dhicks]

if I understand correctly, there's an RDP 7 client available for Windows XP

 

Ah, just found it:

 

Description of the Remote Desktop Connection 7.0 client update for Remote Desktop Services (RDS) for Windows XP SP3, Windows Vista SP1, and Windows Vista SP2

 

Is there some trick whereby you can replace explorer.exe with whatever you want, so you could avoid having a local start menu and simply have a full-screen local RDP client?

 

This shouldn't be too tricky to set up - you'd be able to install any needed drivers locally, too, so there should be few hardware compatability problems. I'll see how the RDP client runs on a couple of old RM Tablet PCs I'm setting up, and I'll maybe try on one of the second-hand Tulip PCs we have - just checked eBay, similar half-height PCs with Windows XP Home licenses are available for £30 plus delivery.

 

Edit: Ah, just realised I can do a direct comparison between the Windows XP RDP client and rdesktop on identical hardware - I'll see if we have time next week.

 

--

David Hicks

Edited August 12, 2010 by dhicks

[Butuz]

is this a purely hardware solution and not software (apart from win 2k8 r2? )

 

 

Dan

 

Yes in my opinion. Even on my 2003 terminal servers the difference between weak thin clients such as HP T5135 and much more powerful thin clients such as Axel M80 is massive. E.g T1535 struggle with simple flash wheras M80's can play youtube vids.

 

I'd love to try on 2008!!!

 

Butuz

[VirtueTechnologies]

Ah, just found it:

 

Description of the Remote Desktop Connection 7.0 client update for Remote Desktop Services (RDS) for Windows XP SP3, Windows Vista SP1, and Windows Vista SP2

 

Is there some trick whereby you can replace explorer.exe with whatever you want, so you could avoid having a local start menu and simply have a full-screen local RDP client?

 

This shouldn't be too tricky to set up - you'd be able to install any needed drivers locally, too, so there should be few hardware compatability problems. I'll see how the RDP client runs on a couple of old RM Tablet PCs I'm setting up, and I'll maybe try on one of the second-hand Tulip PCs we have - just checked eBay, similar half-height PCs with Windows XP Home licenses are available for £30 plus delivery.

 

Edit: Ah, just realised I can do a direct comparison between the Windows XP RDP client and rdesktop on identical hardware - I'll see if we have time next week.

 

--

David Hicks

 

Hi David,

 

10ZiG offer FREE Thin Desktop with their RBT616v thin clients, this great product will also help you to lock down PC's or laptops that you want to use in this way.

 

Here's a link to a short 3.5 min video that explains everything and also a 30 day evaluation download link:

 

http://www.10zig.com/thinclient/thindesktop.php

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Thanks

Best Regards

Zak

[flyinghaggis]

Thinsation is designed for exactly that, although I prefer Slax. We currently have Slax configured with no Window manager, it just boots straight up in to a full-screen RDP client, you don't even know it's a Linux-based machine. The user doesn't need to select from a list of servers, you can get DHCP to do (crude) load-balancing.

 

--

David Hicks

 

Having no *nix experience it's probably not something I'd be able to do without quite a bit of work but that sounds pretty good. Would certianly be interested in having a look at your customised (boot to RDP) version of Slax if you're happy/allowed to share it. I'm sure a few other folks on here would appreciate it aswell.

[dhicks]

Having no *nix experience it's probably not something I'd be able to do without quite a bit of work but that sounds pretty good.

 

No, that's the great thing about Slax - it's a cunningly customisable distribution, you can actually build and download the exact system you want from their web-based system. We found you just had to modify one startup script to load up rdesktop to connect to whatever TS server you want.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

10ZiG offer FREE Thin Desktop with their RBT616v thin clients

 

Yes, but a whole RDP 7-capable machine is £30 off eBay, and we already have a cupboard full of free ones to get through first! Actually, I might try using the old RM Tablets we have as thin client workstations - I've just tried one with Skype and video performance was good enough, so I imagine an RDP client should be fine. Windows XP Tablet Edition (including all the drivers and so on) seems to be around 9GB, so it might prove a bit expensive to replace the harddrives with solid state drives - can you use 16GB CF cards as harddrives?

 

--

David Hicks

[Butuz]

You can get compactflash to ide converter though compactflash drives are pretty slow compared to IDE/SATA.

 

Butuz

[dhicks]

though compactflash drives are pretty slow compared to IDE/SATA.

 

Is that just due to the speed of the cards themselves, though - I thought the CF interface pretty much needed just a pin-converter to let you plug it straight in to IDE?

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

I'll put in a request to the 10ZiG R and D teams to see if they have these figures for you.

 

We did a comparison between identical machines running Windows XP with RDP 7 client and Linux with rdesktop (RDP 5.2). We couldn't see any real difference - our simple load-a-YouTube-video-and-see-if-the-sound-stays-in-sync test ran about the same on both machines. This rather implies that any performance improvement is due to having Windows 2008 R2 on the server and half-decent CPU/graphics client side, so we might as well skip using any kind of specialised thin client device and just use whatever generic nettop we can get cheapest. If we need USB port redirection for IWB drivers we can simply use Windows XP client-side (or, actually, just install the drivers locally). It'd probably still be handy to have some benchmark figures, as I'm sure RDP 7 must do something useful.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

we might as well skip using any kind of specialised thin client device and just use whatever generic nettop we can get cheapest

 

I'd just like to point out how pleased we are with the RM all-in-one machines we just got from this eBay seller:

 

eBay My World - top_topdeals

 

£100 gets you a machine, with built-in 17" 1280x1024 screen, that makes a perfectly capable thin client. They won't quite manage YouTube video playback (they aren't quite new enough to run fast enough to keep the video and audio in sync, although both audio and video quality are pretty good) but they seem to be able to handle everything else okay. The cases would seem to take standard motherboards (probably with a low-profile fan/heatsink and half-height PCI cards), so you could probably get a bunch of cheap processor/motherboard/RAM bundles for another £100 each if you wanted right up-to-date thin clients. Speaking to him yesterday, he has about 500-odd machines still, so there's plenty around.

 

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David Hicks