Sivadam Posted July 21, 2010 Author Posted July 21, 2010 (edited) Thank you. And yes I do! I will support anybody who I think has a genuine issue and will even represent their views when I see Capitaes Staff - and some users around the country could tesify to that. However - just knocking the Product, in what I regard as an inappropriate manner, will initiate similar responses that you have witnessed lately! If the original post that started all this was about the Software then I may have been able to help more - especially via the official support mechanism! (I would still have contradicted one statement, however.) Whilst I understand some of the Technical side I do not attempt to help with this as it is not my forte and I have a colleague who is excellent in this field! Hence, we make a good Team! Edited July 21, 2010 by Sivadam
vikpaw Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 .... However - just knocking the Product, in what I regard as an inappropriate manner, will initiate similar responses that you have witnessed lately! If the original post that started all this was about the Software then I may have been able to help more - especially via the official support mechanism! (I would still have contradicted one statement, however.) Whilst I understand some of the Technical side I do not attempt to help with this as it is not my forte and I have a colleague who is excellent in this field! Hence, we make a good Team! Perhaps what would be useful is that you start a new thread to counteract the 'inappropriate knocking' of SIMS, and limit posts in original thread to actual help. So for example when someone says " I hate SIMS, it's crap! I keep getting reason 0 errors." You link to the relevant KB, then start another thread to tell the world that as mentioned elsewhere 'link' - "SIMS is wonderful and 22000 other schools think so". It's not a nice way to have to do things but may be the way things have to go, as they have in the Educational Jobs Forum, where discussion has to be sidelined, so as not to distract from the aim of the original post.
Sivadam Posted July 21, 2010 Author Posted July 21, 2010 I disagree totally. Users should be 'educated' into posting their issues without unjustifiably knocking a product through what may be insufficient knowlege, or for any other reason. All that does is annoy, and probably alienate, the very people that may be able to supply a positive answer! I certainly know that it is not the best way to illicit my help! The actual product is immaterial!
creese Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 I disagree totally. Users should be 'educated' into posting their issues without unjustifiably knocking a product through what may be insufficient knowlege, or for any other reason. All that does is annoy, and probably alienate, the very people that may be able to supply a positive answer! I certainly know that it is not the best way to illicit my help! The actual product is immaterial! I certainly agree with that. I have ignored a few posts that are very negative. SIMS has it's faults there are things needing change but there is a process for that. Some one complains that things are not working and they get a certain error, what help is "well they should change the error message" "they should re-write the program". The Error is known and lots of negative, jump on the bandwagon SIMS knocking posts are no help to someone who hopes that the email notification is someone who is able to help. Instead they get a loop message of 'SIMS is rubbish'. Lots of things are rubbish but saying so doesn't fix it, being proactive in Change requests and User groups does. 1
vikpaw Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 I disagree totally. Users should be 'educated' into posting their issues without unjustifiably knocking a product through what may be insufficient knowlege, or for any other reason. All that does is annoy, and probably alienate, the very people that may be able to supply a positive answer! I certainly know that it is not the best way to illicit my help! The actual product is immaterial! So somebody is desperate for a fix, they can't log into SIMS, they don't understand what is on SupportNet or aren't allowed to use it or whatever other reason. They have logged a case, but are awaiting a response, and they come to EduGeek. They are peeved, so make some slight against the ever wonderful Capita, and instead of helping them, we take them aside and tell them off for 'unjustifiably knocking a product through what may be insufficient knowlege', rather than help with the problem, and say 'see it's not so bad afterall.' Or, we just help them, which is what most people here want to do, and maybe, just maybe, they fix the issue and the teachers log in and get their legal registration or whatever other task done. I don't feel alienated. Does anyone else? Yes, sometimes people get things wrong, and there are plenty of threads here where people are directed to SupportNet, and the right solution without your intervention. Telling someone who is asking for help, they did it wrong is just going to alienate them. But that's only my opinion. 22,000 tech elsewhere will no doubt disagree. @Creese; - in the recent thread about reason 0, the derailment about error messages was partly caused by this so called 'education'. it was a reaction to that post which escalated and required the thread to be split. by that time all known solutions were listed already anyway, a lot of help was from yourself too. 3
creese Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 @Creese; - in the recent thread about reason 0, the derailment about error messages was partly caused by this so called 'education'. it was a reaction to that post which escalated and required the thread to be split. by that time all known solutions were listed already anyway, a lot of help was from yourself too. I help people as much as I can, it's my job and my aim in life. When I do and satate that this particular error is not only well known and easy to fix, I don't expect to be shot down and told I'm wrong in so many ways. I have probably fixed more reason 0s than the posters put together. I am still waiting for the OP to reply from a list I asked him to try, but I had (in my opinion) to PM him as i saw this was the only way he could get through the knocking of SIMS and build a working system he could be happy with. Should I have to do that? I wouldn't think so. But I may be wrong, I am humanly often.
RingOfFlame Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 Yes. Excellent Support. Then again I am always methodical with my Case Logging on SupportNet - explaining the issue fully, the KBs I have tried and any workrounds that I have created to resolve the issue before I log it! A sympathetic ear when I complain that something is wrong! And Yes! They do listen! Invites to UAT Testing. Don't blame me though if something gets thro' that you do not like - I do my best to help ensure the functionality is at an optimum. Particiaption in Field Trials. Currently, SOLUS3 Part B - and another 'biggie' next term! Appreciation by Capitaes Product Managers and other Senior Staff at Capitaes. Respect by many users of SIMS around the country - via SupportNet, Emails, Phone calls and Visits! ....and probably many more that I cannot think of at the moment, but all of which produce more work for me, much of which I do in my own unpaid time, but which help to make our System the efficient system that I think it is! If you think I gain anything 'monetary' or any 'Freebies' then think again. It actually costs me money because I do not even claim from the school for expenses to travel down to Bedford! Yes! I am MAD - both by name and by nature! (But I am also one of the 'Old school'!) Careful, you will give yourself a sore back with all that patting. I disagree totally. Users should be 'educated' into posting their issues without unjustifiably knocking a product through what may be insufficient knowlege, or for any other reason. All that does is annoy, and probably alienate, the very people that may be able to supply a positive answer! I certainly know that it is not the best way to illicit my help! The actual product is immaterial! In the same way that your replys to request for help have annoyed and alienate myself and many other here. And take it from me, I know how to annoy and alienate fellow edugeekers, and you are putting me to shame.
vikpaw Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 I help people as much as I can, it's my job and my aim in life. When I do and satate that this particular error is not only well known and easy to fix, I don't expect to be shot down and told I'm wrong in so many ways. I have probably fixed more reason 0s than the posters put together. I am still waiting for the OP to reply from a list I asked him to try, but I had (in my opinion) to PM him as i saw this was the only way he could get through the knocking of SIMS and build a working system he could be happy with. Should I have to do that? I wouldn't think so. But I may be wrong, I am humanly often. I agree with you. I helped, you helped, many helped. In my opinion the side tracking was caused by a so called 'educate the user' / 'sims is wonderful' post as we are discussing now. Once sidetracked, no, it shouldn't have carried on. You shouldn't be shot down, though the discussion itself could be of some use, it didn't need to take place in that thread, which is why it was split off in the end as it got out of hand. This thread too, is a split from that original post for help. The discussion wanders off again. My point is, commenting on the accurateness of the OPs statement started this all off. Without that i think it would have stayed under control, and you probably would have solved it by now. I wish i'd never moved that damn post into the MIS forum (yes, for those that don't know, the original post wasn't even under MIS forum. I thought that moving it here would help the OP.) Now we haven't even heard back from the OP, and there is just silly infighting and rudeness which doesn't help anyone. I know that thread isn't the only one that suffers from negativity, and in line with the phases of the moon, the membership often have little ranting sessions across all forums, it's the nature of the beast, we work with those, those mere 'users' after all! The thing is, do you think if you'd questioned the OP about his opening statement slating SIMS, thing would have been better for him, you, all of us. This applies in general not just to here, since this thread is supposed to be about SupportNet, and helpdesks. Is the purpose to help others and solve problems as is our job, or to get bogged down in changing opinions. Both are important, but doing both at the same time isn't helpful.
vikpaw Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 ...And take it from me, I know how to annoy and alienate fellow edugeekers, and you are putting me to shame. Amen to that. 1
creese Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 Now we haven't even heard back from the OP, and there is just silly infighting and rudeness which doesn't help anyone. As I've said, I'm in touch and will continue to help as long as it is needed. We get many schools where a technician has gone off and done their own thing and stopped SIMS from working. This usually presents itself after an upgrade so SIMS gets the blame. It's the fiddlers that break it very rarely the upgrade. To them SIMS is just another program. It's never that when it is needed in a hurry though. 1
MattMitchell Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 SupportNet is a very useful resource, and often has a solution to a problem. Sivadam - what you need to remember is that a lot of people nowadays are used to resolve a software issue by searching google for the problem, as *most* major software is discussed heavily on the internet, and therefore a solution is normally easy to find in this way. Things fall down a little with SIMS, as the information on SupportNet is only accessible to users who have an account, and therefore it doesn't come up in a search engine. Edugeek's content *is* indexed by Google, and if you search the internet for problems with SIMS, Edugeek is the site that comes up in the results, not SupportNet. That said, SupportNet is (often and usually) the best place to find an answer: the site allows users to leverage the expertise of SIMS users across the country, including many expert users who simply do not use sites like Edugeek. It's just that unless you already know about the site, and know how to use it, you'll never come across it as google can't find it. Maybe the solution is to allow partial indexing by google, so that users can find the relevant pages, and then log in to view? There are issues though - there are a lot of problems, and solutions, that I would not feel comfortable posting on a public site, and the benefit of SupportNet is that it *isn't* visible to the entire world! A tricky problem to resolve... 1
vikpaw Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Maybe the 'educating' of users should happen earlier on, perhaps by Capita, at the school level. So they all know to go to SupportNet first, and that they can also tackle the issue of some LAs/Support Desks not wanting users to join SupportNet. While they're at it, they can fix the inconsistency in responses given.
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) In the same way that your replys to request for help have annoyed and alienate myself and many other here. And take it from me, I know how to annoy and alienate fellow edugeekers, and you are putting me to shame. Good! That is precisely why I started contributing in the first place. I was totally disgusted with the threads I had been reading for a considerable time and thought it was time to try and do something about it! Up to the last couple of weeks I thought that I was starting to have the desired effect! People who I may have annoyed or alientated may well just be the ones that needed targeting. If I have upset others then I once again apologise - something I have done many times on here (not that I remember many others reciprocating!). The more discerning of users will understand completely where I am coming from! And I bet you have not been upsetting people in eductaion for as long as I have! And, believe it not, I have mellowed a great deal in old age! Edited July 22, 2010 by Sivadam
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) Thanks Matt. Every single SIMS user has an automatic right to join SupportNet. I cannot really understand anybody who has to manage/maintain SIMS who does not register and just uses other less specific sites to try and find answers to SIMS issues - especially when it is not a real fault with the Software or is just user error. Why on earth would anybody even consider using Google, Edugeek or any other Help Desk without first of all consulting SupportNet? Very Strange!!!! Edited July 22, 2010 by Sivadam
MattMitchell Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Good, hyperlinked documentation for SIMS would be a good thing - at the moment the info available is fairly poor, and too task-focused, centred around the interface rather than around the purpose of the task.
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) Which is exactly why they consulted users on how they want it to change. The following thread was posted at the time! Supportnet 2.0 Online Consultation SURVEY (26262) I wonder how many users here have responded ......... Edited July 22, 2010 by Sivadam
localzuk Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Thanks Matt. Every single SIMS user has an automatic right to join SupportNet. I cannot really understand anybody who has to manage/maintain SIMS who does not register and just users other less specific sites to try and find answers to SIMS issues - especially when it is not a real fault with the Software it is just user error. Why on earth would anybody even consider using Goodle, Edugeek or any other Help Desk without first of all consulting SupportNet? Very Strange!!!! Because many SIMS users don't know about SupportNet! Good, hyperlinked documentation for SIMS would be a good thing - at the moment the info available is fairly poor, and too task-focused, centred around the interface rather than around the purpose of the task. Agreed. Not to mention the freaky long URL's making things impossible to link to. Which is exactly why they consulted users on how they want it to change. The following thread was posted at the time! Supportnet 2.0 Online Consultation SURVEY (26262) I wonder how many users here have responded ......... So, in order to consult on a site which many users don't like, and therefore don't use, they posted a thread on that site and expected people's responses? No, you ask people in other places to go there and have a look. Or you speak to someone with HCI experience and ask them where the site is falling down (HCI being Human Computer Interaction, a mix between computing and psychology). That request is akin to saying 'well, I put the survey on my desk, why didn't you come in and see it?'
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) I assume that you said your piece when they actually ran the consultation re. SupportNet? Maybe that is exactly what they wanted to hear .......... And anybody using these Forums now ought to know about SupportNet. Else the allegations that 'I bring it up too much' cannot be right! Maybe I should mention it more so that they do find out! Edited July 22, 2010 by Sivadam
localzuk Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 I assume that you said your piece when they actually ran the consultation re. SupportNet? Maybe that is exactly what they wanted to hear .......... How would I have done that? I don't use SupportNet very often (in fact, I can count the times I've used it on my hands), and I especially don't browse their forums. When you don't like something, you don't make a habit of using it! And anybody using these Forums now ought to know about SupportNet. Else the allegations that 'I bring it up too much' cannot be right! Maybe I should mention it more so that they do find out! *sigh* You're missing the point, again! Imagine this scenario: A user has an issue with SIMS.net, they don't know about SupportNet so they report it via email to their support desk, and do a bit of Googling. They then find Edugeek and have a browse around, and their particular issue isn't solved. They decide to sign up and post a new thread asking for help. Now, what would that person first want to hear? A solution to their problem? Or being berated for not having used a site they didn't know about? Yes, SupportNet has information on it that is useful, but it is also a small, closed community, with a confusing and odd interface. Logging a change request is a nightmare for example - how do you check that your CR hasn't been logged before? You effectively can't...
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 One wonders how one can criticise something that one does not use ..............
localzuk Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 One wonders how one can criticise something that one does not use .............. I have used it, I didn't like it, so I don't often use it! How infuriating can you get!? Do you simply not understand this simple concept? SupportNet is a horrible site, anyone who has logged into it will see that the interface is a mash of random menus, links, input boxes and terms that to the average user mean nothing. Why would someone who looked at that want to continue to use it??
Sivadam Posted July 22, 2010 Author Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) I have used it, I didn't like it, so I don't often use it! How infuriating can you get!? Do you simply not understand this simple concept? SupportNet is a horrible site, anyone who has logged into it will see that the interface is a mash of random menus, links, input boxes and terms that to the average user mean nothing. Why would someone who looked at that want to continue to use it?? Because you get an answer to simple problems very easily! The boxes are a means of focusing in directly to the area of the Software that you are querying. A general enquiry would throw up many different references that are not releavnt! And to confirm to one that the issue you have is a REAL fault with the Software and not just one's own ignorance of the issue - just as in the Cases that I log with Supportnet Case Log. (Which are many - especially after an Upgrade - Yes SIMS ain't perfect but tell me a MIS that is due to the constraints and timescales imposed by DfE etc?) Edited July 22, 2010 by Sivadam
creese Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Now, what would that person first want to hear? A solution to their problem? Or being berated for not having used a site they didn't know about? Or the other option, find a lot of rumour, false info and arguements about SIMS being rubbish or not?
LosOjos Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Berating people for using EduGeek rather than SupportNet seems to me to be akin to demanding they use AOL rather than Firefox...
Sarconia Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 SupportNet is a horrible site, anyone who has logged into it will see that the interface is a mash of random menus, links, input boxes and terms that to the average user mean nothing. Why would someone who looked at that want to continue to use it?? Here here! I do have to agree that it is pretty dire and I just get an unknown error half the time when I attempt to log a case through it.
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