Sound, lights (and video?) for drama studio

[dhicks]

Hello All,

 

I've just spent a couple of days sorting out sound effects for a school comedy show evening. All done now, but the exercise did highlight our lack of preparedness for this kind of thing - it shouldn't take very long to sort out a few sound effects, but it wound up taking hours. We could do with a decent way to control all the light and do sound, having a bunch of fancy lighting and sound equipment is silly if no-one uses it. What does everyone else use?

 

My thinking so far is to get a desktop PC (laptops tend to have flaky sound) with twin sound cards (we can use one to plug in to the sound system and one with headphones to preview stuff, plus you can always get around file format conversion problems by simply feeding the headphone line from one into the line-in of the other) and a DMX512 to USB converter cable that I've seen on eBay for £50 or so - seemingly it comes with software included, but if anyone has any recommendations for lighting/sound software designed for theatres it'd be much appreciated.

[robins]

Integration used to by possible via MIDI - though was a bit pants. There are various hugely expensive theatre lighting desks that can be used to trigger sound and AV. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_control]Showcontrol [/ame]is a protocol championed by the install market (visitor centres, retail, etc) not really suited to live-ish environments like theatre where stuff always goes wrong (especially if its got kids in it).

[powdarrmonkey]

If you truly want PC-based show control, I recommend Light Factory. I won't tell you about it, I'm sure you can read up on it yourself, but I bought their single universe software & hardware package direct from NZ for about £300 I think (though the exchange rate will almost certainly have changed by now). Make sure you download the PDA control too, very cool

 

I got it with the same thinking as you: why spend £5-6,000 on a full-blown desk for a drama studio? It doesn't make sense.

 

For sound, though, I wouldn't bother with dual cards but get a small mixing desk, we have a small Behringer analogue desk with built-in class D amplifiers and graphic EQ which has been excellent and very reasonably priced. You're not then limited to having the PC as an input device.

 

Shout if you want more info.

[Andrew_C]

it shouldn't take very long to sort out a few sound effects, but it wound up taking hours. --- What does everyone else use?

It does doesn't it? I use Sound Cue System. Works well with lots of features. You can do loops within it, fade ins/outs, play wav or mp3s, and even video in the pro version (£93). This will licence it for your organization, not just one box (on a sort of one show at a time basis)

My thinking so far is to get a desktop PC (laptops tend to have flaky sound) with twin sound cards

One sound card and a small mixer would be better. Gives mic inputs, or cd/video/whatever when you need it. A four channel card would enable weirder effects but getting a little beyond basics. SCS handles many channels if you want it to.

DMX512 to USB converter cable that I've seen on eBay for £50 or so - seemingly it comes with software included,

I wouldn't go there. I would favour strongly a "real" desk, even if it is small. The learning curve for kids trying to do both lights and sound on a pc would be too steep. Part of the "joy" of drama is involving those that can't act, so several "techie" jobs are a benefit, rather than a problem. Have a look at a few of the articles here on this theatre specific Wiki. Specifically the sections 8 & 18.

 

Zero88 and ETC both make good entry level desks, not £50, but I think you would regret going down that route.

 

Or even the Behringer at £150, not in the same "league", but I'm told it is quite workable.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Andrew_C
Wiki link added.

[dhicks]

not really suited to live-ish environments like theatre where stuff always goes wrong (especially if its got kids in it)

 

Reading up a bit, and thinking over last night's experience, you've got a point - having a system that fixes sound and light cues rigidly to a given script probably isn't the best of solutions, something more flexible is called for.

 

If you truly want PC-based show control, I recommend Light Factory.

 

Okay, thanks, I'll take a look.

 

For sound, though, I wouldn't bother with dual cards but get a small mixing desk

 

We actually have both (smallish) sound and light control desks already, it's just me being the computer chappy I figured using a PC to control the whole lot might be easier. This whole exercise is partially an excuse to get the drama teacher a decent PC she can do video editing on - we have a very limited budget, so proving that a bit of hardware can do as much as possible is a good idea.

 

I would favour strongly a "real" desk, even if it is small. The learning curve for kids trying to do both lights and sound on a pc would be too steep. Part of the "joy" of drama is involving those that can't act, so several "techie" jobs are a benefit, rather than a problem.

 

We're an all-girls school, and unfortunately the "techie" side of things tends to be left to me to sort out (our girls can be such... well, girls at times).

 

After reading through the replies here, I'm rather thinking the best idea might be to aim for a PC that can handle a spot of video editing (for videod drama productions) and sound, with light control as a handy add-on if it's needed. I'm still aiming for multiple sound cards, just for the ability to be able to re-record stuff from iTunes and such, if nothing else.

 

Does anyone have any recommendations for sound effect CDs and such like? I can generally find various effects on the web, but it'd be nice to have a ready bank of effects available for children to use.

 

--

David Hicks

[powdarrmonkey]

The BBC's sound effect library, while a bit dated, is very comprehensive and good quality. I haven't really used any others, didn't need to. (They might have updated it since then.)

[Andrew_C]

Ohhh, shame. Last week I spotted that Canford Audi had a complete set in their clearance list, about 3/4 of the way down. Disks 1-20 are the most useful, the 40-60 probably too specific for the OP. A few of the Bits & Pieces disks they list at £5 coud be good.

[Guest Guest]

dhicks - you dont need multiple soundcards to do what you want, you dont even need a new soundcard at all, Audacity will do most things.

 

For a soundcard id look at M-Audio. They do a good range of sub £100 (ex vat) cards. These support ASIO which will be a must if you get a decent program to control it all.

 

Personal opinion of Behringer is most of it is cheap and nasty tat. If thats all you can afford then fair enough, it will do, but just dont expect it to take any abuse.

[Andrew_C]

Personal opinion of Behringer is most of it is cheap and nasty tat.

I know bashing Behringer is a popular past time, but I feel that maybe this quote from a Pro engineer and owner of an audio hire company might give some perspective. For those that don't know, Midas make those huge VERY expensive sound desks seen world wide on the premier tours.

 

Nothing personal but I always like to add to my signature when discussing Midas.

 

Midas uses : c.600 (mostly XL and H series)

Behringer uses : c.6000 (everything from super crap to worse)

Midas Failures : 3 (H1000, H3000, Venice 320) All show stoppers.

Behringer Failures : 0

[Guest Guest]

I know bashing Behringer is a popular past time, but I feel that maybe this quote from a Pro engineer and owner of an audio hire company might give some perspective. For those that don't know, Midas make those huge VERY expensive sound desks seen world wide on the premier tours.

 

Alright then, im wrong and you're right. You obviously know best coz u redz it on teh internetz

[Andrew_C]

Alright then, im wrong and you're right.

Well, glad we've cleared that up then.

 

No, not because I read it on the net, but I know the guy, and his business. I also use B sound kit on a regular basis, along with A&H, Soundcraft, etc and know it does what it says on the tin. Not the best, but OK in most cases. Some of their processing kit is untouchable for features and reliability at any price.

[dhicks]

Last week I spotted that Canford Audi had a complete set in their clearance list, about 3/4 of the way down. Disks 1-20 are the most useful, the 40-60 probably too specific for the OP. A few of the Bits & Pieces disks they list at £5 coud be good.

 

Someone (TTS Electrontics?) had the full set of CDs for sale at £5 each at BETT. They were actual CDs, though, and ripping 50-odd CDs to harddrive and then renaming each of the several dozen tracks per CD sounded like a pointless waste of time. There should, hopefully, be some place we can buy a ready-made wodge of MP3 files or something, ready to be searched through by keyword.

 

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David Hicks

[dhicks]

you dont need multiple soundcards to do what you want

 

I want to be able to get the soundtrack off of whatever media it comes in on and into a format I can edit with Audacity. Audacity is great but doesn't open stuff like FLV files from YouTube or AAC files from iTunes. I can get FLV players and so on that will play YouTube files, but getting something to actually convert into an editable format seems to be more tricky. I figure the easiest way to sort the problem is simply to record the output from one soundcard with another - simply plug the headphone out socket into the line-in. I've tried this with a single soundcard before but run into issues with the sound card not being able to play and record at the same time, so two soundcards it is. It might also be handy to have an editing facility so we can be chopping up sound and re-mixing them whilest the computer is playing other stuff over the speakers.

 

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David Hicks

[Guest Guest]

I want to be able to get the soundtrack off of whatever media it comes in on and into a format I can edit with Audacity. Audacity is great but doesn't open stuff like FLV files from YouTube or AAC files from iTunes. I can get FLV players and so on that will play YouTube files, but getting something to actually convert into an editable format seems to be more tricky. I figure the easiest way to sort the problem is simply to record the output from one soundcard with another - simply plug the headphone out socket into the line-in. I've tried this with a single soundcard before but run into issues with the sound card not being able to play and record at the same time, so two soundcards it is. It might also be handy to have an editing facility so we can be chopping up sound and re-mixing them whilest the computer is playing other stuff over the speakers.

 

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David Hicks

 

You still dont need 2. 1 decent one will be more than capible. Infact chances are you wont need a cable neither as you will be able to route the audio whereever it needs to go (and even if you cant Audacity is able to record the Stereo Mix)

 

But IMO you are going about it wrong. You should be looking at an effient way of converting them through software. Ive never found a format which cant be converted. Try this for a cheap and chearful way of converting Media Converter - the fastest free online audio and video converter

 

Your way will work, dont get me wrong, but just wait until you have to convert 20 tracks - you'll be wishing you didnt do it that way

[Andrew_C]

ripping 50-odd CDs to harddrive and then renaming each of the several dozen tracks per CD sounded like a pointless waste of time. buy a ready-made wodge of MP3

Two things; don't use mp3. If you do, when you edit in Audacity or whatever, the file will be up-converted to wav, and when edited down-converted to mp3. This will introduce audible and quite horrid artifacts. Much better to stay in wav throughout, HDDs are cheap enough now. I tried the mp3 route a few years back, and regretted it so much I've just gone through and re-ripped all of our disks (50+). Of those, Audigrabber only failed to find contents lists for 4 of them.

 

If anyone knows of software that actually works in mp3 as native, then I know someone who would be interested.

 

Audacity is great but doesn't open stuff like FLV files from YouTube or AAC files from iTunes. I can get FLV players and so on that will play YouTube files

Not wishing to open a nasty can of worms here, but you wouldn't let your school use pirated software, so are you really happy with them using pirated music/sfx?

 

That question aside, I'm sure I read on here a few weeks back about a program specifically designed to route sound within a PC; from one application,say media-player, direct to another, Audacity.

[dhicks]

You still dont need 2.

 

I'm still aiming for at least two output channels - I want to be able to listen to one track on headphones whilest another is playing over the speakers. Are there sound cards available with two sets of output ports?

 

Ive never found a format which cant be converted.

 

YouTube "format 10" FLV videos, but I'll definitely give Media Converter a try.

 

 

Two things; don't use mp3.

 

Okay, can anyone recommend a ready-made, royalty-free library of sound effects in WAV format, preferably read-to-go on USB storage or similar?

 

Audigrabber only failed to find contents lists for 4 of them.

 

Did that include sound effects CDs?

 

are you really happy with them using pirated music/sfx?

 

No, nothing's being pirated here - we bought tracks from iTunes, we paid for public performance licenses, we just want to play the tracks in something other than iTunes (we had a couple of tracks we wanted cut or mixed together, so we wanted to get them into Audacity for editing).

 

I'm sure I read on here a few weeks back about a program specifically designed to route sound within a PC

 

Damn, you're right - "virtual audio cable" or similar, I think it was called. Good point, thanks.

 

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David Hicks

[Andrew_C]

Did that include sound effects CDs?

Only SFX CDs! 40 or so of the BBC set, some Bits & Pieces disks, some OLD BBC record versions on CD, and a set of 10, the provenance of which I can't recall. It failed on two of the BBC disks, and a French double set called "Bang!", which is a shame as there are hundreds of tracks, all about a second long. Just gunfire. Edited February 15, 2009 by Andrew_C
Spling

[rh91uk]

For the sound, you'd probably wan't to get some kind of "playout" software like Radio Stations use which can give you buttons to different mp3s.

 

Download Demos - JAZLER radio automation software -> scroll down to JazlerShow. That should do the trick.

 

I'd reccomend Dual Sound Cards too in a decent spec PC to handle this kinda thing.

[dhicks]

It failed on two of the BBC disks, and a French double set called "Bang!", which is a shame as there are hundreds of tracks, all about a second long. Just gunfire.

 

Crickey. Makes you wonder - are soldiers like with the Inuit and the whole thing with having dozens of different words for snow? Do soldiers have dozens of different words for gunfire: "Hmm, that was a whistle-crump-echo", "No, no - I'm sure it was a whistle-crump-boom...".

 

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David Hicks

[dhicks]

For the sound, you'd probably wan't to get some kind of "playout" software like Radio Stations use which can give you buttons to different mp3s. JazlerShow. That should do the trick.

 

Thanks, that sounds like just the ticket.

 

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David Hicks

[Andrew_C]

Thanks, that sounds like just the ticket.

I don't quite understand using a radio station system when there is software specifically for theatre around... Don't get me wrong, it could work, but SCS I refer to above DOES work. Your call.

 

Would Winchester be too far to come and have a look at what it can do? Drop me a PM if you'd like a run through on what we use.

[dhicks]

it could work, but SCS I refer to above DOES work.

 

I'm going mostly by screenshots, but Jazler looks perfect - nice big buttons which you click on and get a sound. That sounds about right for the users that'll be using this system. I might even try and get hold of a touch screen to work with it.

 

Admittedly, I'm aiming for about the most basic, simplest system possible - I can see our girls being able to handle Jazler. It is, also, free, of course, which is a definite bonus :-)

 

Would Winchester be too far to come and have a look at what it can do?

 

Thanks for the offer, I'll definitely think about that one.

 

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David Hicks

[dhicks]

On a somewhat related subject, whilst we're discussing sound systems: has anyone used a netbook for much to do with sound - is the sound output quality okay? Could you potentially get a netbook to use as a portable sound-playing device to hook up to a theatre's sound system?

[Andrew_C]

The two problems you may face are the same as using a laptop:-

 

Sound card quality, it may have odd filters to make headphones sound good, and many are just be poor to start with.

 

Power supply. Many, many laptop PSUs create a digital noise due to the design and an extra earth connection. This occurs differently between different models from the same mfr. Some Vaios are fine (mine was) some are hideous. They will work on battery, or with isolating transformers to separate the earths.

[dhicks]

Sound card quality, it may have odd filters to make headphones sound good, and many are just be poor to start with. They will work on battery, or with isolating transformers to separate the earths.

 

Ah ha - thanks for that, very useful. I've found laptop sound output to be poor in the past but just put it down to "poor quality" sound components, nice to have a decent explanation of what's going on. I'll remember the run-from-battery advice. To avoid sound issues with my laptop and desktop at home I use an external USB Soundlblaster, but I was thinking here of a nice all-in-one unit that would be easy to lug around on the train between theatres. I guess an external USB soundcard is still possible, but I can't see it helping the battery life of the average netbook much. Also a problem if someone turns up with audio on CD if your netbook doesn't have a CD drive.

 

Can anyone recommend a netbook with a good battery life?

 

Anyone use a very-slim-line portable external (USB) CD-ROM drive? We have one, but it's the size, shape and weight of a sizeable brick and comes complete with external power supply.

 

Has anyone bought one of those very cheap USB sound "devices" off eBay? They look dodgy as anything, being basically a USB dongle with audio in and out ports - anyone had any use out of them?

 

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David Hicks