I'm building a school MIS, what's next?

[mavhc]

Would you consider building an open-source solution, whatever route you take? I know one edugeeker for sure that would back that idea

 

No need, they already exist https://gibbonedu.org/features/

https://www.os4ed.com/

https://github.com/ictinnovations/ICTSchool

[Ditto]

@speedypro, would you consider to the open source options? Also, if you don't mind me asking, but have you experience as a school governor at any point?

[PotNoodleTech]

Don't be nasty.

 

Ok I admit my reply was overly flippant. Apoligies to the original poster.

[speedypro]

@speedypro, would you consider to the open source options? Also, if you don't mind me asking, but have you experience as a school governor at any point?

Hi. Not at this time, sadly. I really do not have any knowledge in the edu space. I've arranged a call with a Wonde specialist to see what app I could build and start my learning journey from there.

[jthompson]

I've arranged a call with a Wonde specialist to see what app I could build and start my learning journey from there.

 

I'd say that's a good shout. We've built a number of internal tools here where we're working off our own MIS data but via Wonde. Partly because still using SIMS means paying ESS for the privilege of hosting all their third-party integration services for them but only getting to use a crummy CLI reporting tool, rather than them providing an API, but also because the Wonde API makes things carry on working if the school does decide to switch MIS.

Edited October 15, 2024 by jthompson

[synaesthesia]

It's kind of funny really - when Wonde first hit, most people (myself included) were up in arms about the whole idea, GDPR compliance I seem to recall was a big one. I can't remember if it was a genuine mistake on their part or over-reaction on ours, but it's an absolute godsend now.

[supportman]

Hi David. Though I have more research to do, I was looking at primary schools or nurseries. I was also looking at a simple system where you'd pay for meals or trips. As what synaesthesia said, I do not stand a chance building a fully working MIS so I'd forget about that, if that's the case.

 

In regards to technology: Ruby on Rails and AWS. Yes, a cloud based SAAS product.

 

I've said it many times before, but yes building an MIS is not actually that hard using a modern framework like Ruby on Rails or Laravel. I've got the skills as well but we use Bromcom now and pretty happy with that. 80% of it I would build in exactly the same way as Bromcom

 

The vast majority of development for the big companies is technical baggage, which is why they find it so hard.

 

Writing a student module would be the first step, then registers the next then census stuff. Make this site responsive with something like tailwind from the beginning and you already have better features than most MIS's out there.

 

Both Sims and Bromcom are stuck on .net (not sure about arbor) but modern frameworks can make this kind of thing very quick to build.

 

But saying that, there is a huge market for a cloud based cashless catering system out there waiting to be tapped. I'd definitely look there first as its not really hard to take payments or keep a database of a couple of thousand people!

[mthomas08]

Problem with building an MIS - is all the extra features and linking everything together.

 

Go to a student profile, you don't just see personal information.. you see everything and each section can be expanded:

-Timetable

-Attendance

-Bromcom VLE access

-Parents

 

The modules alone = 16. All with their own separate areas and buttons and settings. Oh and all that data can be pulled out ... put in reports.. imported back..

 

Having done the MIS comparison, an MIS isn't just a simple little thing to have.. not even for Primaries.

We have MCAS for our daughter. We can see all her data.

 

Before all that, you need a built MIS with the capacity to expand.

Before all that, you need a ton of servers that can manage staff access from just one Primary - plus parents if you have MCAS equivalent. Daughters Primary has about 20 staff and probably 100 parents at least.

 

You only have to look at the state of SIMs - they just conitnued to build modules and features without improving the overall platform.

Bromcom keep taking on schools and they've struggled in recent years but *touch wood* minus that M365 Azure issue.. it has been reliable in 2024 for us compared to 2023 by a long shot.

 

I feel for anyone that seriously wants to develop an MIS..

 

Bromcom right now still need some improvements with the way MCAS/Student VLE imports users. And don't get me started with old SIMs Learning Gateway (SLG) back in the day.. that was a steaming pile of.....

[ITGURU]

I'd happily sell my on-call system built in-house! that's why built it as way beyond capabilities of SIMS on-call. Even pulls the student data from SIMS daily to add any new students!

[robyholmes]

Can I throw my vote in for a cashless catering system. Web based with link to MIS via Wonde or other cloud sync platform.

 

KISS approach to start with, ID card support by typed number. Reporting on meals sold etc.

 

Done [emoji106]

[speedypro]

The easiest thing for me to do right is to start small (modular), something like ParentPay, then as I understand everything there is about an MIS, I'll add those modules (features) as the business grows.

[DODICT]

Doesn't Pebble achieve what your saying in terms of a modern cloud based cashless system ? Definitely seems to avoid the significant hardware investment associated with some of the traditional players.

[robyholmes]

Doesn't Pebble achieve what your saying in terms of a modern cloud based cashless system ? Definitely seems to avoid the significant hardware investment associated with some of the traditional players.

It does, but they don't support payments via the MIS system (Bromcom in our case). We don't want to go back to seperate systems for payments.

 

Nor does it seem they want to support it in future which is a real shame. Otherwise yes it would appear to be a perfect fit. I understand it's just a frontend for SqaureSpace Till software. No point I reinventing the wheel.

[DODICT]

It does, but they don't support payments via the MIS system (Bromcom in our case). We don't want to go back to seperate systems for payments.

 

Nor does it seem they want to support it in future which is a real shame. Otherwise yes it would appear to be a perfect fit. I understand it's just a frontend for SqaureSpace Till software. No point I reinventing the wheel.

 

Strange as their TRAC product is a integration component they claim syncs all your systems - I know they have integrated with Arbor and are know facilitating other companies integrating with Arbor via TRAC so happy to link other cashless companies components. So worth a bit more digging as cant see why they wouldnt extend their potential market ?

[robyholmes]

Strange as their TRAC product is a integration component they claim syncs all your systems - I know they have integrated with Arbor and are know facilitating other companies integrating with Arbor via TRAC so happy to link other cashless companies components. So worth a bit more digging as cant see why they wouldnt extend their potential market ?

 

They integrate for pupil & staff data, but can't integrate the 'Money' side of things. So can't pull down the dinner balances from Bromcom. Or at least that's what they told me. We would have to use there system for parents paying for dinner money, or it's a non-starter.

[speedypro]

...but can't integrate the 'Money' side of things...

Why can't these "big boys" integrate cashless payments? The route I'm taking, I'll be using Stripe Connect. At my current work place, we have something similar but they only deal with UK nurseries. That software has an ecommerce, which I built. Are there any legalities around this approach?

[DODICT]

Re Pebble - they definitely do on Arbor so wonder why they don't for Bromcom. I can see nurseries being a growth market and so a low cost, low effort solution could have traction but schools buy from schools and so getting into the market is hard and normally takes effort , time and marketing to get your presence felt but good luck to you. If you have a group of schools/nursaries you can work with initally I think that will help with that initial market penetration.

[supportman]

Re Pebble - they definitely do on Arbor so wonder why they don't for Bromcom. I can see nurseries being a growth market and so a low cost, low effort solution could have traction but schools buy from schools and so getting into the market is hard and normally takes effort , time and marketing to get your presence felt but good luck to you. If you have a group of schools/nursaries you can work with initally I think that will help with that initial market penetration.

 

I just emailed them and they confirmed it doesn't work with Bromcom payments. Never quite understand why companies don't support the major providers. I mean its 20% of their potential sales!

[Bromcom_John]

I just emailed them and they confirmed it doesn't work with Bromcom payments. Never quite understand why companies don't support the major providers. I mean its 20% of their potential sales!

 

If anyone wants them, Pebble, to then just tell them to get in touch with our 3rd party support team. The API is free and becoming accredited is likewise zero cost (at least no cost from us.. time spent is its own costs obviously).

Same goes for the OP. IF you are looking to produce a service covering a particular school need, talk to Wonde/Groupcall/Salamander.

You will be able to develop for the API of our own or any competitor MIS but using the 3rd party experts as cited in the previous sentence, can reduce your integration workload enormously.

 

Don't oversimplify the need though. ParentPay might seem quite narrow band and specific but.. and this is just opinion, school payments is its own hellishly complicated can of worms as most schools do things quite differently from one another and everyone of them will tell you that "their" way is the only sensible way of operating!

The project aim of "allowing schools to take digital payment" might seem simple but.. and these are just off the top of my head

Will you be providing payment methods for different vendors (apple Pay, stripe, paypoint)

Is it going to allow for short term parent debt

Will it provide an integrated offline payments option

Is it just for one aspect of payments? Or are you aiming to account for a variety eg. Dinners, uniform, clubs, wraparound care, charity donations, child care vouchers

How will your refunds be processed? Is there going to be a delay?

What are the transaction charges going to look like?

 

On that last one, during the development of our own online payments elements with the MCAS interface I was gob smacked during conversations with certain payment providers to discover the underlying entry level costs for per transaction fees. Paypoint is a GREAT Service (especially in inner city schools with patchy credit records) but it is NOT cheap.

Other Edugeekers have already said this but, the education sector is crazy with regulations, they are all available in the various gov.uk web spaces. Get everything you can and get yourself a business model planned out before you even put a single line of code down. It would be extremely easy to get a fair way in only to find out your new code baby isn't going to be viable. I've seen big foreign operations with existing function trying to break into the UK market only to back off due to the weight of legislation.

 

That said, I heartily welcome anyone to the sector with the eagerness and vision to try and use their time to improve the lot of any school!

 

It is a great way to consider spending your effort and I personally wish you every success.

Edited October 18, 2024 by Bromcom_John

[synaesthesia]

now THAT's the right sort of engagement we like to see!

[supportman]

If anyone wants them, Pebble, to then just tell them to get in touch with our 3rd party support team. The API is free and becoming accredited is likewise zero cost (at least no cost from us.. time spent is its own costs obviously).

Same goes for the OP. IF you are looking to produce a service covering a particular school need, talk to Wonde/Groupcall/Salamander.

You will be able to develop for the API of our own or any competitor MIS but using the 3rd party experts as cited in the previous sentence, can reduce your integration workload enormously.

 

Don't oversimplify the need though. ParentPay might seem quite narrow band and specific but.. and this is just opinion, school payments is its own hellishly complicated can of worms as most schools do things quite differently from one another and everyone of them will tell you that "their" way is the only sensible way of operating!

The project aim of "allowing schools to take digital payment" might seem simple but.. and these are just off the top of my head

Will you be providing payment methods for different vendors (apple Pay, stripe, paypoint)

Is it going to allow for short term parent debt

Will it provide an integrated offline payments option

Is it just for one aspect of payments? Or are you aiming to account for a variety eg. Dinners, uniform, clubs, wraparound care, charity donations, child care vouchers

How will your refunds be processed? Is there going to be a delay?

What are the transaction charges going to look like?

 

On that last one, during the development of our own online payments elements with the MCAS interface I was gob smacked during conversations with certain payment providers to discover the underlying entry level costs for per transaction fees. Paypoint is a GREAT Service (especially in inner city schools with patchy credit records) but it is NOT cheap.

Other Edugeekers have already said this but, the education sector is crazy with regulations, they are all available in the various gov.uk web spaces. Get everything you can and get yourself a business model planned out before you even put a single line of code down. It would be extremely easy to get a fair way in only to find out your new code baby isn't going to be viable. I've seen big foreign operations with existing function trying to break into the UK market only to back off due to the weight of legislation.

 

That said, I heartily welcome anyone to the sector with the eagerness and vision to try and use their time to improve the lot of any school!

 

It is a great way to consider spending your effort and I personally wish you every success.

To be fair, the Bromcom payment system has been pretty flawless since you changed the provider at the start of the year.

 

Its so nice having it all integrated with the parent portal app.

[SteveM555]

If anyone wants them, Pebble, to then just tell them to get in touch with our 3rd party support team. The API is free and becoming accredited is likewise zero cost (at least no cost from us.. time spent is its own costs obviously).

Same goes for the OP. IF you are looking to produce a service covering a particular school need, talk to Wonde/Groupcall/Salamander.

You will be able to develop for the API of our own or any competitor MIS but using the 3rd party experts as cited in the previous sentence, can reduce your integration workload enormously.

 

Just to add that building with the new partner Bromcom REST API is great experience we found, we're currently updating some in-house apps we have built and have moved them away from the legacy API. There's still a few things we'd like to access data for but its quite comprehensive if anyone is looking into developing with it.

[speedypro]

Over the weekend, my potential business partner has decided to leave his job and head back to Scotland to care for his parents, which puts me in a predicament. This start week, commencing October 21st, was the week I was planning on writing the first line of code for a cashless payment system. Without overloading this post, is there anyone that would be kind enough to answer some basic questions as I build this application out via PM or email? These are "answer whenever you are free" questions. It'll be questions regarding your current or previous backend/admin cashless payment systems; the sections around meal planning and trips. Feel free to send me a PM if interested.

 

Many thanks.

[andola]

I’d say starting with your kids' school is a smart move! Just reaching out to the head teacher can open doors, and if you share your vision, they might get excited about it. It helps to have parents on your side too; if they're interested in a better option than ParentPay, they could help spread the word. When I was working on a project like this, I set up a demo day at the school, and it made a huge difference in getting feedback and support. Plus, consider hitting up local education events or even online groups where school staff hang out—those connections can really help you get noticed.

[speedypro]

If anyone wants them, Pebble, to then just tell them to get in touch with our 3rd party support team. The API is free and becoming accredited is likewise zero cost (at least no cost from us.. time spent is its own costs obviously).

Same goes for the OP. IF you are looking to produce a service covering a particular school need, talk to Wonde/Groupcall/Salamander.

You will be able to develop for the API of our own or any competitor MIS but using the 3rd party experts as cited in the previous sentence, can reduce your integration workload enormously.

 

Don't oversimplify the need though. ParentPay might seem quite narrow band and specific but.. and this is just opinion, school payments is its own hellishly complicated can of worms as most schools do things quite differently from one another and everyone of them will tell you that "their" way is the only sensible way of operating!

The project aim of "allowing schools to take digital payment" might seem simple but.. and these are just off the top of my head

Will you be providing payment methods for different vendors (apple Pay, stripe, paypoint)

Is it going to allow for short term parent debt

Will it provide an integrated offline payments option

Is it just for one aspect of payments? Or are you aiming to account for a variety eg. Dinners, uniform, clubs, wraparound care, charity donations, child care vouchers

How will your refunds be processed? Is there going to be a delay?

What are the transaction charges going to look like?

 

On that last one, during the development of our own online payments elements with the MCAS interface I was gob smacked during conversations with certain payment providers to discover the underlying entry level costs for per transaction fees. Paypoint is a GREAT Service (especially in inner city schools with patchy credit records) but it is NOT cheap.

Other Edugeekers have already said this but, the education sector is crazy with regulations, they are all available in the various gov.uk web spaces. Get everything you can and get yourself a business model planned out before you even put a single line of code down. It would be extremely easy to get a fair way in only to find out your new code baby isn't going to be viable. I've seen big foreign operations with existing function trying to break into the UK market only to back off due to the weight of legislation.

 

That said, I heartily welcome anyone to the sector with the eagerness and vision to try and use their time to improve the lot of any school!

 

It is a great way to consider spending your effort and I personally wish you every success.

 

Not sure how I've missed this, my apologies.

 

I have started mocking out the app. It's built in a modular way. I'm currently focusing on meals and school trips modules. For the web version, it will accept all major payment methods and on iOS it will support Apple Pay. I have yet to work on the actual payment section but with Stripe, refunds are fast.

 

A parent may forget to pay for something, so with that in mind, yes, there will be a short term debt for the parent to clear at a later date. The school will see all these data and with a click of a button, an email is sent to the parent regarding their debt etc. If anyone wants to see what I'm working on, send me a PM and I'll send you link when that time is near (maybe next month or January 2025). This thread is extremely helpful and many thanks for all your input!

Edited October 31, 2024 by speedypro