Could someone please explain how OVS saves money?

[Delgado]

Coming from business network environment I'm a bit new to the OVS in schools. I'm a bit bemused as to why Schools pay for their Desktop OS licenses - over and over each year.

Surely when the OS is installed we're done. A reconditioned desktop from Amazon is as low as £50 with Windows pro installed. I don't have to continually pay for that.

 

I get that Microsoft Office standalone and Office365 are leased arrangements.

 

Also to know what the average cost is for an individual Windows server license and it's CALS are with OVS. Do we have to continually purchase the OS license and CALS each year with OVS?

 

Ideally I'd like to replace the servers with Linux, but it's hard to quantify the software cost saving. We just get one amorphous bill for everything each year with no itemised breakdown. Is that usual?

 

I feel I must be missing something obvious and would be most grateful if anyone could enlighten me

[Mr.Ben]

I'm coming from a Microsoft 365 (EES) angle here rather than OVS - similar but at a larger scale (1000+).

 

I'm also assuming that Office 365 and some Windows servers are required (so CALs are needed).

 

E3 costs for M365 are around £35pcm (£420 per user per annum)

 

A3 costs approx £41.50 per annum.

 

That's a huge discount when buying via OVS/EES.

 

The Enterprise/Education specific versions are only available via EES or OVS, which gives more control and security when correctly configured.

 

If you are just buying Windows licences OVS does not make any sense at all, but for Office 365/Microsoft 365 and the security features it is good value.

 

Our bill is approx £70k per annum - the equivalent of 2 junior members of IT staff and their on costs. Our licensing includes the Defender P2 step up for staff.

 

I would expect those junior staff to have mediocre knowledge of servers and security. That's dangerous for us as an organisation and the more that can be managed/automated by less staff (using the Microsoft stack) the better.

 

It's easier to find competent staff with Windows Server knowledge.

 

To give context, we run 36 primaries with 6 staff members (3 junior techs, Helpdesk manager, Technical manager and me).

[Mr.Ben]

P.S I would ask for a breakdown.

 

And don't forget the student benefits that mean no charge for O365 and cals with OVS and EES

[dmj]

It's easier to find competent staff with Windows Server knowledge.

 

I don't really understand why this is the case. Something like 95% of the internet runs on linux/unix operating systems so you'd think the opposite would be true. Is it just that there is higher demand for linux and that puts the pay higher meaning schools can't compete?

[Delgado]

I don't really understand why this is the case. Something like 95% of the internet runs on linux/unix operating systems so you'd think the opposite would be true. Is it just that there is higher demand for linux and that puts the pay higher meaning schools can't compete?

Linux jobs tend to attract more graduates. Unix was given to the universities after it was created.

[Delgado]

P.S I would ask for a breakdown.

 

And don't forget the student benefits that mean no charge for O365 and cals with OVS and EES

Thanks for the explanation. The office365 is about all I'd like to keep tbh. Hopefully there could be some savings in cutting the rest.

[DrCheese]

If you're running Windows clients & want to keep 365 then there's little point in migrating your servers to linux, unless you like making extra work for yourself. Manage Windows clients with the proper tools.

 

You won't save much (if any) money as you'd still need to buy 365 & all the desktop licenses & you're just damaging the school by making it harder to replace you if you ever leave - As your environment is now non-standard compared to other schools

You really want to look into moving your windows clients to Azure AD/Intune if you want to save on server licensing.

 

End of the day, virtually every school in the country pays for MS licensing & it's accepted as part of the running costs so you're not unique in paying for it.

[dmj]

If you're running Windows clients & want to keep 365 then there's little point in migrating your servers to linux, unless you like making extra work for yourself. Manage Windows clients with the proper tools.

 

I don't agree with the 'proper tools argument - at the end of the day you manage windows clients using either standard or well documented protocols which usually boil down to applying registry settings to the clients which are published as ADMX files.

How you deliver it is all pretty standard. LDAP/SMB/DHCP/DNS all integrate really well with windows clients.

You won't save much (if any) money as you'd still need to buy 365 & all the desktop licenses & you're just damaging the school by making it harder to replace you if you ever leave - As your environment is now non-standard compared to other schools

 

Back when I was school NM we used to pay for server licenses/CALs perpetually and get the workstation licenses with the PC. It was vastly cheaper than the annual licensing.

As far as 'damaging the school' it sounds more like saving the school money, ensuring job security and getting a better paid job at the end of it.

[Roberto]

If you're running Windows clients & want to keep 365 then there's little point in migrating your servers to linux, unless you like making extra work for yourself. Manage Windows clients with the proper tools.

 

You won't save much (if any) money as you'd still need to buy 365 & all the desktop licenses & you're just damaging the school by making it harder to replace you if you ever leave - As your environment is now non-standard compared to other schools

You really want to look into moving your windows clients to Azure AD/Intune if you want to save on server licensing.

 

End of the day, virtually every school in the country pays for MS licensing & it's accepted as part of the running costs so you're not unique in paying for it.

 

I'm a huge fan of the Microsoft way. I'm a MVP and all that, but despite all that I think your reply here is overwrought and unhelpful.

 

I don't think the value proposition of Linux vs. Microsoft is as clear cut as the "Linux is free" crowd say - but I think it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask about the value of Linux.

 

Long term support, making it more difficult to hire people with the right skills (as Linux skills are less available in the market and will often go to better paid jobs just as higher end Microsoft stack people will tend to do so) is a very valid question to consider - but I think "damaging the school" is a ludicrous statement to make. What even is a "standard school" btw? I remember one point when RM Connect was the de-facto standard and people used to say that you'd be "damaging the school" and you couldn't possibly save money because everyone else pays for it when people used to talk about removing RM Connect and going with 'vanilla Windows'; I think these days you'd say that a 'vanilla Windows' school was perfectly normal.

 

I remember equal doubt here and elsewhere about Office 365 vs on-prem (and again for Google Apps vs. Office 365). These days these choices are perfectly normal ones to make.

 

iPads and Macs - I've been accused and seen others accused of heresy when the question of having these on the network come up. I'd certainly be asking some hard questions about value for money and supportability with a Mac classroom in a predominantly windows school or college these days, but its now considered a perfectly normal choice to make.

 

So why shouldn't Linux be the same, a matter of choice? As a bare minimum, I'd expect any competent admin to look at their network and ask themselves if there are any situations where one platform vs. another might be better value or deliver a better experience, or free much needed budget without a drop in service as a matter of course.

 

The only constant thing in IT is change.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Roberto

[johnlevis]

As a reseller, I'd say OVS benefits you with massively discounted licence prices against business ones. You have the option of 1 or 3 year renewals giving you flexibility if you are thinking of changing in the future ie to the Microsoft 365 A3 licencing model for Office, Windows, Intune, Azure AD P1 and, for students, Minecraft.

 

By licencing the staff count (FTE) you cover the licences for all school owned devices

 

You should have a complete breakdown of what's on your agreement by licence - feel free to get in touch for a quick chat and to see if we can help with that

[dmj]

As a reseller, I'd say OVS benefits you with massively discounted licence prices against business ones. You have the option of 1 or 3 year renewals giving you flexibility if you are thinking of changing in the future ie to the Microsoft 365 A3 licencing model for Office, Windows, Intune, Azure AD P1 and, for students, Minecraft.

 

By licencing the staff count (FTE) you cover the licences for all school owned devices

 

You should have a complete breakdown of what's on your agreement by licence - feel free to get in touch for a quick chat and to see if we can help with that

 

We used to get educational proces on perpetual licenses, is that not a thing anymore?

Windows server had a 5 year support and 5 yr extended (linux LTS on RHEL and Ubunti are 10 year) so as long as we upgraded infrequently it was much cheaper to do this than paying annually.

[DrCheese]

As far as 'damaging the school' it sounds more like saving the school money, ensuring job security and getting a better paid job at the end of it.

 

So the 1st one only saves the school money whist you're working there. The other two seem like personal benefits rather than for the organisation.

 

but I think "damaging the school" is a ludicrous statement to make.

It's not tho - You're putting in a Linux based AD replacement that has a specific skill set that's not recruited for as standard in schools & if using an OSS version of Linux, will be completely unsupported. Unless paid for, then that defeats the point.

 

If you're using Windows Clients & then want to use Office 365, I don't see why you'd go out of your way to make a rod for your own back by then running an unsupported Linux based active directory - Remember, we're not talking about the odd web server here.

Any admin that comes in afterwards will rip it out and revert to using a supported solution.

 

End of the day this feels more like an ideological decision more than a "What's best for the school"

 

I remember equal doubt here and elsewhere about Office 365 vs on-prem (and again for Google Apps vs. Office 365). These days these choices are perfectly normal ones to make.

Both are commercially sold & supported pieces of software backed up by large organisations. Comparing them with freebie linux distros is not the same.

[Roberto]

Both are commercially sold & supported pieces of software backed up by large organisations. Comparing them with freebie linux distros is not the same.

 

Yes, Ubuntu and Red Had are both most well known for being run out of one guy's shed. Commercial support for Linux is now available, if that's your thing.

 

If you want to talk about support and value for money - my employer pays for the top tier of Microsoft premiuim enterprise support and I know how much that costs per year. I'd be concerned about value for money if my local primary was paying that same level for support.

 

I'm not even advocating for Linux to be installed here, just saying that the question isn't as cut and dried as people seem to sometimes thing. Nuance is a thing.

[DrCheese]

Yes, Ubuntu and Red Had are both most well known for being run out of one guy's shed. Commercial support for Linux is now available, if that's your thing.

 

If you want to talk about support and value for money - my employer pays for the top tier of Microsoft premiuim enterprise support and I know how much that costs per year. I'd be concerned about value for money if my local primary was paying that same level for support.

 

I'm not even advocating for Linux to be installed here, just saying that the question isn't as cut and dried as people seem to sometimes thing. Nuance is a thing.

 

Yes - I know that & I said so above. But the OP is talking about using the freebie versions (Else where's the cost saving??) that have support forums that usually end up with "lol just code your own fix" - So it's not something you can rely on.

Edited October 10, 2022 by DrCheese

[mavhc]

All I've ever done with Microsoft is read their forums and code my own fix anyway, not like it's worth phoning them.

 

Given Windows Client updates are free it's not worth paying for OVS for them.

 

You could connect all the clients to Azure AD, but that would probably cost more than a Windows server. Good news is student CALs are about 80p.

[dmj]

The 'support' you get with MS licensing is simply to be licensed, you don't get a support contract.

The difference with the RHEL/Canonical suppport contracts is that you actually get support.

[ConceroEdu_Brad]

Happy to help here - I have many years of Microsoft licensing experience and work closely with the Microsoft team. Reach out if you want a call to run through the dark art of licensing

[Delgado]

Yes - I know that & I said so above. But the OP is talking about using the freebie versions (Else where's the cost saving??) that have support forums that usually end up with "lol just code your own fix" - So it's not something you can rely on.

 

Dell support Ubuntu Linux Server. Canonical certify most manufacturers servers. I've been building them for LANS with zero problems for years. No less stable than Red Hat.

 

A Linux server is a lot tidier, simpler and easier to replace than Active Directory. I can teach a few simple commands to a trusted member of staff to add new users/change passwords..

 

If we had hundreds of PC's then AD is the obvious choice. But it rankles paying for OS OVS Licenses on a yearly basis on such a small LAN..

 

Someone above said that it would be damaging to the school to use Linux. But I'm seeing 20 minute logons to new PC's due to roaming profiles atm on AD.

I timed it to 4 seconds just using the default profile on a domain-less PC connecting to the Linux server.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Delgado

[Primus]

Dell support Ubuntu Linux Server. Canonical certify most manufacturers servers. I've been building them for LANS with zero problems for years. No less stable than Red Hat.

 

A Linux server is a lot tidier, simpler and easier to replace than Active Directory. I can teach a few simple commands to a trusted member of staff to add new users.

 

If we had hundreds of PC's then AD is the obvious choice. But it rankles paying for OS OVS Licenses on a yearly basis on such a small LAN..

 

Someone above said that it would be damaging to the school to use Linux. But I'm seeing 20 minute logons to new PC's due to roaming profiles atm on AD.

I timed it to 4 seconds just using the default profile on a domain-less PC connecting to the Linux server.

 

On that point alone, roaming profiles are deprecated by Microsoft and have been for some time. You are not comparing apples to apples as you could easily have your PCs logging on with local profiles.

 

Logging onto a domain joined PC is always going to be a bit slower than on a PC that is not domain joined but you can get it configured correctly so that it logs on quickly - most of our PCs log on within 10-15 seconds and they're hardly brand new.

[Delgado]

On that point alone, roaming profiles are deprecated by Microsoft and have been for some time. You are not comparing apples to apples as you could easily have your PCs logging on with local profiles.

 

Logging onto a domain joined PC is always going to be a bit slower than on a PC that is not domain joined but you can get it configured correctly so that it logs on quickly - most of our PCs log on within 10-15 seconds and they're hardly brand new.

 

I don't get why multiple AD local profiles on a PC is even necessary in the first place. You then have to fixup HKEYCurrentUser issues with group policy. It's a hot mess.

Why not just login into the PC with the default profile and login to a Linux Server with different credentials.

[Andrew_C]

Asking a pupil, never mind a teacher to use two user names and passwords? Ho-boy...

[Delgado]

Asking a pupil, never mind a teacher to use two user names and passwords? Ho-boy...

 

Just click on the Welcome screen icon that says 'Pupil' the network login comes afterwards.

[psydii]

If none of the requirement of business/education/enterprise for which Windows / AD / Group Policy (and its now long failed competitors) were designed are of concern to your organization, or they limit more than they enable, then unmanaged Windows devices accessing a Linux fileshare might be sufficient.

 

I would suggest that if that really is the case, you don't need Windows at all and, you should go for a pure Google Workspace environment. You could even have Linux desktops then. Though you might want to consider Chromebooks if you organization wants to have mobile devices for students.

 

FWIW I ran a small (120 seat) school on four servers back in 2002. My predecessor had it all on one but we needed to expand to two AD, one fileserver and one print server (which also doubled as the backup server) to ensure reliability and resiliency. We also ran a FreeBSD box for internet filtering email and the website. For Microsoft licences we used the equivalent of OVS back then. It worked well. About 10 years ago they moved over to pure Google, which was absolutely the right decision for them.

Edited October 10, 2022 by psydii

[dmj]

Why not just login into the PC with the default profile and login to a Linux Server with different credentials.

 

Don't do this. Duel logins across separate systems is crazy. If you want to run file/print services on linux join those servers to the windows domain. I ran 25000 users across 6 file servers users like this at a university, it's a really well supported configuration. Once you've got a stable base then migrate the RADIUS, DNS and DHCP. Once you've done those move the users/passwords onto the Linux Domain controllers apply the GPO from those and scrap the windows ones.

[Delgado]

If none of the requirement of business/education/enterprise for which Windows / AD / Group Policy (and its now long failed competitors) were designed are of concern to your organization, or they limit more than they enable, then unmanaged Windows devices accessing a Linux fileshare might be sufficient.

 

I would suggest that if that really is the case, you don't need Windows at all and, you should go for a pure Google Workspace environment. You could even have Linux desktops then. Though you might want to consider Chromebooks if you organization wants to have mobile devices for students.

 

FWIW I ran a small (120 seat) school on four servers back in 2002. My predecessor had it all on one but we needed to expand to two AD, one fileserver and one print server (which also doubled as the backup server) to ensure reliability and resiliency. We also ran a FreeBSD box for internet filtering email and the website. For Microsoft licences we used the equivalent of OVS back then. It worked well. About 10 years ago they moved over to pure Google, which was absolutely the right decision for them.

 

Thank you for your post. Sounds like a good decision moving to pure Google for your school. Especially for the licensing simplicity.