Thermal Cameras in Schools - Are you being asked about them?

[Net-Ctrl]

Hello all,

 

We have been asked by quite a few clients about thermal camera technology, whether it's something that we supply and whether it could be used as a warning system when students start to return to schools.

 

If you are also being asked about this technology, we are running 1 on 1 calls/demonstrations. I have compiled some information about the technology below.

 

If you have any questions, please let me know.

 

 

Many of you will be aware we partner with a IP-CCTV manufacturer called MOBOTIX, who do have a thermal camera portfolio.

 

A number of MOBOTIX clients, including hospitals and airports, are already using the thermal technology as a proactive warning system with the MOBOTIX M16 TR (Thermal Radiometry) solution which allows you to measure thermal radiation in the entire image area and assign a temperature value to each pixel. This, in turn, helps with identifying temperatures that fall outside the allowed range.

 

From what we have seen MOBOTIX provides a clearer representation of body temperature than other manufactures and has the ability to be within approx. +/- 0.5 degrees of the true value, with the ability to go lower using additional black box technology.

 

This accuracy is achieved by targeted specific locations on a person’s face – the medial canthus (corner of the eye) is our most desired target area as it shows the truest value to a person’s internal body temperature, followed by the T-shape from the nose and across the top of the eyes, followed by the forehead.

 

As a brief overview, the MOBOTIX thermal cameras offer:

 

• Display of temperature differences from 0.1°C

• Alarm in case of exceeding or falling below defined temperature ranges

• Event Triggers (alarm, network message, activation of a switching output)

• Screening via special TR windows or the complete sensor image

• Temperature range from -40 to +550 °C – allowing cameras to be re-purposed for perimeter security, if required.

• Internal SD card for recording

• No requirement for NAS

• Will not affect any current CCTV system as no integration required

• 10W PoE power

• Secondary sensor lens for day or night image

 

It is important to note that :

 

• Thermal Radiometry models are not Medical Devices

• Accuracy depending on environmental conditions and configuration

• Further accuracy is possible with a black body radiator present

 

It is important to explain to those that are asking you about this technology, that this is not going to solve the whole problem, but provide you with data and it's how you use this data that will define how successful it can be.

[DrCheese]

Thermal Radiometry models are not Medical Devices

 

So what's the point then?

[Net-Ctrl]

It gives you more information on the individual - information that can be used to form an effective strategy to mitigate those that might put others at risk. Information, that without the thermal technology you wouldn't have.

 

Like a lot of things, it's how you use that information that will deem how successful a thermal camera solution is.

[bald_pig]

Sorry, it's not a medical device, stop advertising it as such.

[DrCheese]

gives you more information on the individual - information that can be used to form an effective strategy to mitigate those that might put others at risk. Information, that without the thermal technology you wouldn't have.

 

Information that isn't medically trustworthy & can be affected by any number of conditions - So snake oil/security theatre then. Good to have that cleared up.

 

Forgive me - I know you're only giving out info because people are asking about these, but I feel that a lot of companies are going to make a lot of money selling cameras that are as useless as a chocolate teapot & give people a false feeling of safety

Edited May 18, 2020 by DrCheese

[mavhc]

Given human temperature baselines vary wildly, and you have to wait 10 mins after they come in from outside for skin temperatures to equalise, and there's no evidence of fevers being a useful diagnostic, I don't think it's that useful.

[Net-Ctrl]

Sorry, it's not a medical device, stop advertising it as such.

 

We're not advertising it as a medical device. In my original post, I have highlighted that it is not a medical device.

 

A number of our clients have been asked to look into thermal technology and it's use in schools - they have in turn contacted us to discuss this further. Based on this, I am sure a number of Edugeek users will have been asked this question as well. The session were running are a chance for people to understand the technology what it can and can't do - to enable them to feed this back into schools.

[Garacesh]

We're not advertising it as a medical device. In my original post, I have highlighted that it is not a medical device.

 

A number of our clients have been asked to look into thermal technology and it's use in schools

You are being asked about them as a medical device, and you ruddy well know it. You aren't suddenly having an uptick of people asking because folks are sneaking onto premises in camo gear and warpaint, are you?!

 

Don't cash in on people's panic. Do the responsible thing and advise your clients that these would be ineffective at best, and lead people into a false sense of security at worst.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Garacesh
grammar is hard

[Net-Ctrl]

When we have been talking to schools about this technology our first point to them is that this is not a medical device. This is not going to single-handedly protect your site. It is crucial that users understand the limitations of this technology so that they don't purchase it on false grounds - and this is what we want to focus on. Our aim is not to panic people - far from it - we want to educate users on the technology. If you're being asked by a head teacher/governor etc to investigate then we can go through this with you.

 

From what we have seen these cameras can show an accurate body temperature. If they didn't then we wouldn't even be talking about them.

[mavhc]

But how is knowing a temperature useful unless if you don't even know their baseline temperature, and that's assuming they've not just come in from outside?

[DJ-1701]

Thanks @Net-Ctrl, it's nice to get an honest overview from an established reputable company such as yourselves rather than some chancers I've heard contacting schools.

[Net-Ctrl]

With high temperature being one of a number of potential indicators for profiling someone that has COVID-19 it can be useful to know. You can set a series of alerts/alarms for temperatures that may exceed 37.8 degrees for example, but ignore those values lower. You are open to false/positives with thermal camera technology. In order to get an accurate reading these are for indoor use only, and the subject should be less than 3m away from the camera, and again the temperature should be taken from the corner of the eye. This area is less prone to increasing in temperate from a hot day/jogging to school. So, if you ever see claims of recording 5+ individuals as one - you can't trust that data at all as the subjects will be great than 3m away for a start. I have had a number of emails with ambitious claims to what their technology can do.

 

We are not saying that schools need to go and buy thermal cameras to protect their site, but we are aware that schools are being asked about them and the importance of understanding what they can/can't do. From the sessions we have ran so far, we have had some great open discussion about these cameras. That's why we have been doing them 1 on 1 to give organisations to see how they work and whether they're right for their school.

[Garacesh]

With high temperature being one of a number of potential indicators for profiling someone that has COVID-19

Then you are admitting to promoting using a device you yourself have stated is not a medical device, for medical purposes.

 

This is incredibly irresponsible.

You are attempting to capitalise on FUD.

 

Stop it. Be better.

[Net-Ctrl]

Thanks @DJ-1701. There are a lot of chancers out there at the moment. I hope people reading this thread will understand that we are trying to educate those that are being asked about thermal technology and show what it can/can't do. At the end of the day, if we install a solution into a school where the user is expecting it to do something that it can't - nobody wins.

[Net-Ctrl]

Then you are admitting to promoting using a device you yourself have stated is not a medical device, for medical purposes.

 

This is incredibly irresponsible.

You are attempting to capitalise on FUD.

 

Stop it. Be better.

 

We are educating users about the technology - and promoting a solution that can give accurate temperatures - but that is not a medical device.

 

We aren't trying to deceive anyone - on all sessions with clients, we have highlighted the limitations and stated that this is not a medical device.

[DrCheese]

and show what it can/can't do

 

Then all companies should be screaming right at the top of their webpages/info guides on these that they can't be used to monitor COVID 19 & are not accurate medical devices, therefor not suitable for 99.99% of what people are wanting them for.

If they aren't or are burying this in small print, then they are nakedly capitalising on fear.

 

Now it's basic capitalism (Supply/demand) & there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not try to dress this up as anything else.

Edited May 18, 2020 by DrCheese

[Garacesh]

I'm sorry, but I just don't think a boilerplate 'Lolz not actually a medical device tho' is sufficient when you know full well that the people asking about them are asking because of COVID-19, and as such. you're being asked about these devices in a medical capacity.

These devices gather medical data about a subject, and that data that will be used as part (or in whole) of a medical strategy. We both know this.

 

Yes, the clients are also being irresponsible too. But if I sell someone a gun to someone knowing full well they're trying to kill someone, am I not, to a degree, also culpable? This disease is still killing people. Everyone has to do their bit to protect others and whilst the school/other organisation are still shouldering most of the fault for using non-medical devices as part of a medical strategy, I just can't help but feel it's irresponsible for you to promote them as such, even if you're trying to weasel-word your way out of it. If you sold someone thermal cameras 6 months ago and now they decide "hang on a minute.. couldn't we..?" then that's not on you at all, but you're directly drawing a line between these cameras and a COVID solution and, again, that's incredibly irresponsible.

 

I appreciate companies may be suffering financially at the moment (though I have no idea if your company specifically is), but I'm seeing a fair few companies jump on disingenuous schemes to sell this or that to people based mostly on FUD. For example, there's a lot of insufficient hand sanitizer out there (vinegar solutions, or <70% alcohol). Again, people are dying because of this disease and to try to capitalize in such a disingenuous way is, whilst legally sound, morally questionable.

 

Edit: This is the last on it I'll say, as I expect the mods are watching this thread carefully already. But to anybody considering implementing these, I would advise you listen to sound science, and do not base your medical strategy on devices that are not meant for medical applications.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Garacesh

[Net-Ctrl]

Our approach is always to inform the user. In the sessions we have ran we go through thermal technology in general, we go through the use cases, we detail the pros/cons and then we do live demonstrations. We always ensure the client understands the limitations of this and any other solution we provide. With this one specifically, we make it clear that it's not a medical device.

 

I think there are a lot of companies out there that are promoting this technology on false ground and making very ambitious statements, whilst not promoting the limitations.

 

The purpose of this post was to highlight to users, if they are being asked this technology, to let us know so that we can go through it with them properly. We aren't here to provide solutions that are purchase on false pretences. Nobody benefits in this situation.

[DrCheese]

No - Informing the user would be "We're getting asked about these things, but we know they aren't right for the reason 99.999999% of you are asking them for, so we're not selling them because we feel we'd be ripping you off"

 

What you are doing instead is "We're getting asked about these things... here's our solution By the way they aren't any use medically but we'll insinuate they might be useful because... reasons"