Government Cloud MIS list

[TheScarfedOne]

Not sure if people have seen this announcement on twitter, but...

 

Schools Hosted Service for SIMS | CloudStore | Gov.UK

 

Discuss...

 

Note, this is provision of Sims7 as hosted solution.

[Marshall_IT]

Looking at this it seems to be aimed at primaries.,I think thus could be very helpful to them.

Would it involve local sims clients connecting to the hosted server or something like a Remote App version of sims too.

 

The hosting section says £99 per user per year but what is the additional per Gb per year?

Also how much I just the licensing? Would we still be paying the same costs plus this extra for hosting?

 

It certainly raises a lot of questions and will be an interesting topic to follow.

[matt40k]

To even it out a bit, they're playing catch up... 4 other MIS players have been on it for a while... and it's the whole package not just hosting...

 

Arbor:

Arbor Education Adaptive Management Platform | CloudStore | Gov.UK

 

RM Integris G2:

Integris G2 | CloudStore | Gov.UK

 

Progresso:

Progresso

 

Bromcom:

Bromcom Cloud MIS for Primary Schools | CloudStore | Gov.UK

Edited July 10, 2014 by matt40k

[TheScarfedOne]

Looking at this it seems to be aimed at primaries.,I think thus could be very helpful to them.

Would it involve local sims clients connecting to the hosted server or something like a Remote App version of sims too.

 

The hosting section says £99 per user per year but what is the additional per Gb per year?

Also how much I just the licensing? Would we still be paying the same costs plus this extra for hosting?

 

It certainly raises a lot of questions and will be an interesting topic to follow.

 

My understanding is that it will be a RemoteApp/Terminal Server style service. For Primary's - absolutely agree. It great to see the competition in this field hotting up again. The licence costs will be as they are now I would expect, I cant see those changing...

[Bromcom-PR]

My understanding is that it will be a RemoteApp/Terminal Server style service. For Primary's - absolutely agree. It great to see the competition in this field hotting up again. The licence costs will be as they are now I would expect, I cant see those changing...

RemoteApp/Terminal Server style service and Government Cloud:

It is very important to note that Government Cloud policy does not allow products that do not conform to NIST definition of the cloud (ie 'true cloud'). Legacy thick Windows/client-server applications hosted centrally fall under 'fake cloud' category.

 

 

Please see bottom of page-3: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/266214/government-cloud-strategy_0.pdf

 

For a simple language explanation - please see Euro Cloud Vice President Phil Wainewright's video clip on True v Fake Cloud:

[GREED]

RemoteApp/Terminal Server style service and Government Cloud:

It is very important to note that Government Cloud policy does not allow products that do not conform to NIST definition of the cloud (ie 'true cloud'). Legacy thick Windows/client-server applications hosted centrally fall under 'fake cloud' category.

 

Ummmm... so how do you explain SIMS being on CloudStore?

[pooley]

So would this still need us to have a server on site or could the whole lot be hosted by Capita ?

[Bromcom-PR]

Ummmm... so how do you explain SIMS being on CloudStore?

 

The software SIMS is 'not' on CloudStore.

 

What is being offered on CloudStore is 'hosting' only!

 

Admittedly it is easy to misread.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Bromcom-PR

[dhicks]

Discuss...

 

Does anyone know how they handle getting output from CommandReporter.exe? Do they maybe provide a web service?

[zag]

I don't understand how they can call it "cloud" if its just a terminal server solution?

 

Surely a cloud platform is web based?

[Bromcom-PR]

I don't understand how they can call it "cloud" if its just a terminal server solution?

 

Surely a cloud platform is web based?

 

 

Precisely! That's why 'terminal server/client-server based hosted solution' is called FAKE CLOUD - as per Phil Wainwright's video -

[GREED]

I don't understand how they can call it "cloud" if its just a terminal server solution?

 

Surely a cloud platform is web based?

 

Well now, nothing like a comment like that to reopen the big debate!!

 

@Bromcom-PR No, I'm sorry, but they are offering facility for SIMS (albeit you have to have an additional SIMS licence too) as part of the package... You cannot just buy hosting and not use SIMS as part of that offer. I think the wording misinterpretation is in the fact you have to still pay for SIMS too, that is a little bit devious. You would not buy this unless you intend to use SIMS in the (fake) cloud.

 

Perhaps this is offering facility to enable SIMS to be used in the (fake) cloud... perhaps this is the fine line GovStore have not crossed. Either way, it is there and I fail to see how drawing attention that it is not a cloud product (yet for all intent and purpose is being offered as one) makes any difference?

[Bromcom-PR]

Well now, nothing like a comment like that to reopen the big debate!!

 

@Bromcom-PR No, I'm sorry, but they are offering facility for SIMS (albeit you have to have an additional SIMS licence too) as part of the package... You cannot just buy hosting and not use SIMS as part of that offer. I think the wording misinterpretation is in the fact you have to still pay for SIMS too, that is a little bit devious. You would not buy this unless you intend to use SIMS in the (fake) cloud.

 

Perhaps this is offering facility to enable SIMS to be used in the (fake) cloud... perhaps this is the fine line GovStore have not crossed. Either way, it is there and I fail to see how drawing attention that it is not a cloud product (yet for all intent and purpose is being offered as one) makes any difference?

 

@GREED, we are not disagreeing. In fact 'SIMS Hosting' service should not be under SaaS and it should be under PaaS.

 

It is not likely that CloudStore Team will scrutinises if PaaS on offer is promoted/intended to be used for application software that may result in TRUE or FAKE Cloud.

[GeekyPete]

So if I am reading this correctly:

 

Capita will effectively host your sims and give you terminal server access to it. This saves them from re-writing SIMS they can just use the software they already have.

 

So, you won't need your server. What will this cost? A minimum of £990 per year (10 user minimum) plus £429 set up. All this is on top of what you are already paying capita for licencing and support.

 

If you have 70 staff that use if for registers your looking at around an extra £7000/year.

 

Integris and Arbour will cost a lot less than just hosting SIMS, let alone licencing it.

[matt40k]

So would this still need us to have a server on site or could the whole lot be hosted by Capita ?

 

No server required.

[Tall_Paul]

We've not had a SIMS server on site for about 5 years. It hasn't affected how we work.

 

It's not a browser based offering though, a SIMS client has to be installed.

[matt40k]

Do you use FMS?

[Tall_Paul]

Do you use FMS?

 

Not now (we use Corero). We did use it a couple of years ago though.

[Marshall_IT]

I think as always, there is some confusing over the term cloud.

 

Cloud != Web browser based.

 

The definition that we are concerned with here as pointed out by @Bromcom-PR is the NIST Definition.

 

This States

 

Cloud computing is a model for enabling ubiquitous, convenient, on-demand network access to a shared

pool of configurable computing resources (e.g., networks, servers, storage, applications, and services) that

can be rapidly provisioned and released with minimal management effort or service provider interaction.

 

and there are 3 service models, SaaS, PaaS and IaaS.

 

In the SaaS model it states

 

The applications are accessible from

various client devices through either a thin client interface, such as a web browser (e.g.,

web-based email), or a program interface.

 

This again does not state it has to be specifically access through a web browser.

 

PaaS and IaaS are not used in this instance as you are not dealing with netowrking or storage (IaaS) and all hte software updates etc to SIMs are managed by capita so they are not offering you a Platform PaaS to deploy on to.

 

In the case of the Capita Hosted SIMs this would fit into the SaaS as far as i can see by allowing the use of remote desktop / remote app access as this would allow access from multiple devices.

 

Source: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf

[Bromcom-PR]

I think as always, there is some confusing over the term cloud.

 

In the SaaS model it states

"

The applications are accessible from various client devices through either a thin client interface, such as a web browser (e.g., web-based email), or a program interface.

"

 

This again does not state it has to be specifically access through a web browser.

 

PaaS and IaaS are not used in this instance as you are not dealing with netowrking or storage (IaaS) and all hte software updates etc to SIMs are managed by capita so they are not offering you a Platform PaaS to deploy on to.

 

In the case of the Capita Hosted SIMs this would fit into the SaaS as far as i can see by allowing the use of remote desktop / remote app access as this would allow access from multiple devices.

 

Source: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-145/SP800-145.pdf

 

 

OK - not being "browser" isn't the only reason why legacy thick client / client-server based applications (MIS) fail NIST Cloud definition.

 

It is because unlike browser/back-end characteristics, legacy thick client / client-server based MIS application is design of 1990s/early 2000s for network of PC with a server and each PC dedicated for a client application demanding all PC resources with no notion of 'resource pooling' or elasticity'. There would have been no need for such characteristics in such environment where each PC serves one user. Therefore legacy thick client / client-server based MIS application have no ability to conform RESOURCE POOLING and RAPID ELASTICTY hence is 'FAKE CLOUD' - See below extract from NIST definition (did you see the video clip by @pwainewright? It is explained very elegantly but in a simple language -

).

 

"Resource pooling.

The provider’s computing resources are pooled to serve multiple consumers using a multi-tenant model, with different physical and virtual resources dynamically assigned and reassigned according to consumer demand. There is a sense of location independence in that the customer generally has no control or knowledge over the exact location of the provided resources but may be able to specify location at a higher level of abstraction (e.g., country, state, or datacenter). Examples of resources include storage, processing, memory, and network bandwidth.

Rapid elasticity.

Capabilities can be elastically provisioned and released, in some cases automatically, to scale rapidly outward and inward commensurate with demand. To the consumer, the capabilities available for provisioning often appear to be unlimited and can be appropriated in any quantity at any time. "

[Bromcom-PR]

Not now (we use Corero). We did use it a couple of years ago though.

 

Interesting ....

 

Is Corero 'hosted' or locally installed?

[GREED]

(did you see the video clip by @pwainewright? It is explained very elegantly but in a simple language -

).

 

Yes, this is the third time you have quoted the link, I think we have all got the message now.

 

"Resource pooling.

The provider’s computing resources are pooled to serve multiple consumers using a multi-tenant model, with different physical and virtual resources dynamically assigned and reassigned according to consumer demand. There is a sense of location independence in that the customer generally has no control or knowledge over the exact location of the provided resources but may be able to specify location at a higher level of abstraction (e.g., country, state, or datacenter). Examples of resources include storage, processing, memory, and network bandwidth.

Rapid elasticity.

Capabilities can be elastically provisioned and released, in some cases automatically, to scale rapidly outward and inward commensurate with demand. To the consumer, the capabilities available for provisioning often appear to be unlimited and can be appropriated in any quantity at any time. "

 

I wonder if the other listed MIS' from the earlier list also meet these capabilities?

 

Are all NIST principles tested before the product is listed on the GovStore?

 

I'm trying to get a sense of the authority pushing this to meet the NIST criteria. I wouldn't want to see it being an arbirarty test chosen by GovStore or whoever. Who says Resource Pooling makes a product 'cloud'? What makes that a correct criteria compared to another group of industry experts say something else.

 

My point is GovStore has adopted a definition of 'cloud', a subject notoriously fluffy and ambiguous.

 

I'm not arguing with the definitions or those that have assigned them, I want to be able to trust they are fit for purpose.

[Bromcom-PR]

I'm trying to get a sense of the authority pushing this to meet the NIST criteria. I wouldn't want to see it being an arbirarty test chosen by GovStore or whoever. Who says Resource Pooling makes a product 'cloud'? What makes that a correct criteria compared to another group of industry experts say something else.

 

My point is GovStore has adopted a definition of 'cloud', a subject notoriously fluffy and ambiguous.

 

I'm not arguing with the definitions or those that have assigned them, I want to be able to trust they are fit for purpose.

 

 

If we accept that users face 'fake' vs 'true' cloud, the US and the UK government adapted NIST as 'gold standard' to define characteristics of cloud - true cloud. We haven't come across anyone challenging NIST being inadequate and if it is good enough for US and UK governments then it should be good enough for any school/LA.

 

Whilst it is reasonably easy to identify 'fake' cloud by checking the fundamentals (see below), within 'true cloud' to our knowledge there is no attempt to quantify or rate these characteristics as to how well optimized they are. From outset one should weed out fake cloud application. Because fake cloud applications are non-starters and in terms of cost/resource sharing benefits of true cloud applications they do not come anywhere near even least optimized true cloud application.

 

The most offensive fundamental characteristics of 'fake' cloud include:

- Application designed for PC client environment and when hosted behaves just the same manner eg each instant demanding its private full RAM memory resource

- Application code is non re-entrant hence code is not shared in whilst executed in memory

 

The above characteristics cause fake cloud application requiring up to 50-fold(!!!) memory and processor usage than true cloud equivalent. You need to add up to 50 fold more cooling, space and power consumption etc.. In fact all happens in fake cloud, is re-location exercise from a PC running legacy application to centrally hosted - hence "Same old Software as a Service" (SoSaaS).

 

In browser based MIS application, application code is re-entrant and one copy shared by 1,000s of users. Only small amount (5 Mbyte rather 250 MByte in case of legacy thick-client application) RAM is consumed for each instant of the application.

 

I hope the above helps.

[matt40k]

My point is GovStore has adopted a definition of 'cloud', a subject notoriously fluffy and ambiguous.

 

My understand of the GovStore definition is SaaS = you buy services, not infrastructure. IE you pay your money (per user for example), they give you a service. You don't care if it needs 10TB of RAM or 1MB of RAM. The only bit you care about is the bottom line - cost and the quality of the service.

[Marshall_IT]

My understand of the GovStore definition is SaaS = you buy services, not infrastructure. IE you pay your money (per user for example), they give you a service. You don't care if it needs 10TB of RAM or 1MB of RAM. The only bit you care about is the bottom line - cost and the quality of the service.

 

I agree with this in some respect, but the end result means a higher cost to the customer.

I think we all know that Capita are playing catchup in the cloud market and we can all accept that this offering is not their end game but a stop gap measure to offer a service to schools who struggle to host their own servers etc.

 

This product is never going to be get major take up so they essentially don't need to worry about exponential scaling of resources.