[POLL] Should Scotland be an independent country?

[elsiegee40]

I have now setup the parallel poll on SurveyMapper [mentioned earlier in this thread]

 

It is open to anyone on the web to answer. When answers are logged the system will ask respondents where they are. The system will then plot the responses geographically.

 

Link: SurveyMapper - Respond to Survey: Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

I have set up the poll to match the Edugeek poll with the exception of the poll closing date [i have set this to be the date before the day of polling in Scotland]

 

That's all very well @DaveP, but I think the results would be more useful if the English, Northern Irish, Scots and Welsh were allowed to say that rather than lumping us all as UK

Edited February 20, 2014 by elsiegee40

[Gatt]

Wow this has taken off a bit since I looked earlier- and turning into a good debate!

 

As for whether or not Salmond has stated that he would default on the Debt - He did this week in Aberdeen!

 

Offering a “deconstruction” of Mr Osborne’s argument, Mr Salmond said: “If there is no legal basis for Scotland having a share of the public asset of the Bank of England, then there is equally no legal basis for Scotland accepting a share of the public liability of the national debt.”

 

Source: Salmond says Scotland will not share debt without share of pound - FT.com

[6Foot2]

That's all very well @DaveP, but I think the results would be more useful if the English, Northern Irish, Scots and Welsh were allowed to say that rather than lumping us all as UK

 

Whoops. I had thought that would be taken care of already. I will edit the poll [if I can: Getting an error when I try to edit it] or I will create an new one.

[ZeroHour]

Wow this has taken off a bit since I looked earlier- and turning into a good debate!

 

As for whether or not Salmond has stated that he would default on the Debt - He did this week in Aberdeen!

 

 

 

Source: Salmond says Scotland will not share debt without share of pound - FT.com

 

As others have said, the SNP have been cherry picking things, this is the no campaign's cherry picking for the no to the pound if we dont get a % of the assets we paid for (including BoE) how can we be liable for a % of the debts those assets accrued and are secured against.

How can they claim to take back/remove things but leave us with the bill too for the shared debt.

Edited February 20, 2014 by ZeroHour

[Gatt]

I agree that there is a lot of cherry picking going on with the key points, but at the same time, both sides need to get themselves sorted:

 

The "Better Together" side need to come up with a proper "white paper" and the "Yes" campaign (particularly Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney [aka The SSS Brigade] need to stop doing the "La La La" song and start being constructive with the comment that are being raised about the EU and the Pound.

 

Rather than branding the other side as bullies or saying they're opinions are preposterous, then need to start sitting down, digesting the information and coming back with something that the voters are going to want to hear - so when the rUK says that a Currency Union is highly unlikely, the SSS Brigade need to sit down go ok, they've said this, how can we work with this, what other options do we have - then come back with some proper answers and not that of stroppy teenagers in a playground fight..

 

If they could do this and explain to us what they will do should A, B C or D happen, then I'd be more inclined to listen to them.

But at the moment all I'm hearing is them slagging off those who oppose independence - It's not constructive and its, to be blunt, childish.

[ZeroHour]

I agree that there is a lot of cherry picking going on with the key points, but at the same time, both sides need to get themselves sorted:

 

The "Better Together" side need to come up with a proper "white paper" and the "Yes" campaign (particularly Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney [aka The SSS Brigade] need to stop doing the "La La La" song and start being constructive with the comment that are being raised about the EU and the Pound.

 

Rather than branding the other side as bullies or saying they're opinions are preposterous, then need to start sitting down, digesting the information and coming back with something that the voters are going to want to hear - so when the rUK says that a Currency Union is highly unlikely, the SSS Brigade need to sit down go ok, they've said this, how can we work with this, what other options do we have - then come back with some proper answers and not that of stroppy teenagers in a playground fight..

 

If they could do this and explain to us what they will do should A, B C or D happen, then I'd be more inclined to listen to them.

But at the moment all I'm hearing is them slagging off those who oppose independence - It's not constructive and its, to be blunt, childish.

 

At least now the rUK are at least acknowledging the possibility of independance, Cameron consistently refusing the tv debate is not helping. The no campaign seems to laugh at the idea we could be independant and offers nothing as they think its all a big joke.

[6Foot2]

OK. I have recreated the poll.

 

Link: SurveyMapper - Respond to Survey: Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The previous one still exists as the site won't let me delete it at the moment.

 

I have taken the responses down to postcode level [Only need the first part of the post code]

 

It should work now [Fingers crossed]

[Gatt]

At least now the rUK are at least acknowledging the possibility of independance, Cameron consistently refusing the tv debate is not helping. The no campaign seems to laugh at the idea we could be independant and offers nothing as they think its all a big joke.

 

 

True, this isn't helping - I do kinda agree with David Cameron though when he says that it really should be between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling who's heading the Better Together campain. However, it wouldn't hurt DC to agree to some form of compromise - though I feel now that it's too late - if Cameron concedes and has a debate then it makes him appear weak, and the SNP could pounce on this with an opportunity to prove that if they can concede for a debate, then they can concede on things like a currency union.

So as much as I feel a debate is a good idea, I can't see it happening for this reason.

 

As for the YES campaign.. well as I've already said, they need to start being more constructive an stop the playground antics..

[Gatt]

OK. I have recreated the poll.

 

Link: SurveyMapper - Respond to Survey: Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The previous one still exists as the site won't let me delete it at the moment.

 

I have taken the responses down to postcode level [Only need the first part of the post code]

 

It should work now [Fingers crossed]

 

Gah - the only trouble with the Postcode is that it doesn't reflect where that person is originally from (Scottish in England, English in Scotland, Scottish in Outer Mongolia!, etc)

[ZeroHour]

True, this isn't helping - I do kinda agree with David Cameron though when he says that it really should be between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling who's heading the Better Together campain. However, it wouldn't hurt DC to agree to some form of compromise - though I feel now that it's too late - if Cameron concedes and has a debate then it makes him appear weak, and the SNP could pounce on this with an opportunity to prove that if they can concede for a debate, then they can concede on things like a currency union.

So as much as I feel a debate is a good idea, I can't see it happening for this reason.

 

As for the YES campaign.. well as I've already said, they need to start being more constructive an stop the playground antics..

 

Darling may head the Better Together but he is in charge of nothing, to me and several I know it looks like Cameron is sending a spokesperson who he probably hates (being Labour) to deal with the scottish issue rather than him wasting his time.

He wouldnt look weak, he would look like he cared, a problem the tory party have in Scotland where they are seen to realise our votes dont mean much, if Scotland, North Ireland and Wales all voted for a party it would make no difference as we dont have enough votes I believe to stop anything. Although thinking now he probably cares more about looking weak to the rUK voters with the upcoming election. The tories have a huge image problem in Scotland, one he doesnt help by ignoring us, it makes it very easy for the Yes campaign to use tory stereotypes against a vote for no.

At least he mentioned us in his new years address.

Edited February 20, 2014 by ZeroHour

[elsiegee40]

OK. I have recreated the poll.

 

Link: SurveyMapper - Respond to Survey: Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The previous one still exists as the site won't let me delete it at the moment.

 

I have taken the responses down to postcode level [Only need the first part of the post code]

 

It should work now [Fingers crossed]

 

Great Perhaps a separate thread for it @DaveP

[elsiegee40]

Gah - the only trouble with the Postcode is that it doesn't reflect where that person is originally from (Scottish in England, English in Scotland, Scottish in Outer Mongolia!, etc)

 

No, but it shows how people would vote were there a referendum available. You vote in the country you live in usually, so it seems fair

[Guest Guest]

Regarding military, if Scotland paid for 10% (mythical number) of the costs over all these years we own 10% along with anything else.

 

Not according to any commentator regarding international law I've heard has said. Supposedly Scotland will get a % based on population or GDP.

[ZeroHour]

Not according to any commentator regarding international law I've heard has said. Supposedly Scotland will get a % based on population or GDP.

 

I think you are reading my statement too literally, the point is scottish people had helped pay for x assets along with everyone else, we should be likewise entitled to a fair % of the asset too, I didnt specify how that would be worked out which yes could be based on GDP etc.

[6Foot2]

Great Perhaps a separate thread for it @DaveP

 

That had crossed my mind. However I thought that as it was exactly the same poll [by design] I thought that it belonged in the same thread.

 

If @Gatt doesn't mind I will create a new thread for my SurveyMapper poll.

 

I have two responses on my poll so far.

[Gatt]

No, but it shows how people would vote were there a referendum available. You vote in the country you live in usually, so it seems fair

This is true I suppose

 

That had crossed my mind. However I thought that as it was exactly the same poll [by design] I thought that it belonged in the same thread.

 

If @Gatt doesn't mind I will create a new thread for my SurveyMapper poll.

 

I have two responses on my poll so far.

 

Go for it

[Trapper]

Why should Cameron debate? As has been made painfully clear this is a vote on the future of Scotland, not the future of the United Kingdom. This referendum is between the people of Scotland and the political parties of the Scottish Assembly.

 

Once again you can't say that this is a Scottish issue and rUK cannot vote and then expect the political parties of rUK to get involved in a formal debate on the issue, where quite honestly Cameron would be mullered one way or the other.

 

If this referendum was on the future of the entire United Kingdom where every citizen had a vote, then yes the Westminster leaders should be out debating this US style (ugh), but it's not.

 

The whole setup is remarkably screwed up. It's a Scottish issue, but really it's not as it involves everyone in the UK. Who campaigns for the Union? Scottish MPs? Should the Westminster elite get involved as it directly affects the entire Union, or should they stay away as the referendum is setup for the Scots? If Westminster leaders get involved are they campaigning for the Union and the rUK citizens who do not have a say or are they (as I'm sure would be portrayed north of the border) once again interfering in sovereign Scottish affairs?

 

This whole mess could have been handled far better.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Trapper

[6Foot2]

Parallel poll created.

 

Link: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/132285-surveymapper-poll-should-scotland-independent-country.html

[ZeroHour]

Why should Cameron debate? As has been made painfully clear this is a vote on the future of Scotland, not the future of the United Kingdom. This referendum is between the people of Scotland and the political parties of the Scottish Assembly.

 

Once again you can't say that this is a Scottish issue and rUK cannot vote and then expect the political parties of rUK to get involved in a formal debate on the issue, where quite honestly Cameron would be mullered one way or the other.

 

If this referendum was on the future of the entire United Kingdom where every citizen had a vote, then yes the Westminster leaders should be out debating this US style (ugh), but it's not.

 

The whole setup is remarkably screwed up. It's a Scottish issue, but really it's not as it involves everyone in the UK. Who campaigns for the Union? Scottish MPs? Should the Westminster elite get involved as it directly affects the entire Union, or should they stay away as the referendum is setup for the Scots? If Westminster leaders get involved are they campaigning for the Union and the rUK citizens who do not have a say or are they (as I'm sure would be portrayed north of the border) once again interfering in sovereign Scottish affairs?

 

This whole mess could have been handled far better.

 

You forget they could hardly be called interfering when ASKED for a debate to help clear up misconceptions between the current leader of union against the potential leader of an independant Scotland. You may not see it as an issue but the people who are actually voting do, the refusal sends the wrong message and aids the Yes campaign greatly.

 

EDIT: To cheer everyone up a bit a potential Scottish pound

 

Edited February 20, 2014 by ZeroHour

[Trapper]

Ok it's a while ago and from the Torygraph, but the language of Salmond:

 

Alex Salmond wants David Cameron to make 'anti-Scottish' case in TV debate - Telegraph

 

“articulate a case against Scotland” - whatever Cameron said would be soundbite nirvana for the SNP. Given that sort of language, would you?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Trapper

[ZeroHour]

Ok it's a while ago and from the Torygraph, but the language of Salmond:

 

Alex Salmond wants David Cameron to make 'anti-Scottish' case in TV debate - Telegraph

 

“articulate a case against Scotland” - whatever Cameron said would be soundbite nirvana for the SNP. Given that sort of language, before he declined, would you?

 

If Cameron can't deal with Salmond in a debate he isnt doing a very good job, Cameron can hold his own usually in debates.

Also that presumes we are pretty dense and dont see Salmond for what he engineers during the debate.

Edited February 20, 2014 by ZeroHour

[Trapper]

It would be a powerful anti-Union message though. English Toff PM making an anti-Scottish can go it alone stance. However he would phrase the pro-Union argument it would come back to that.

 

It's not being a chicken. It's like trying to debate Ed Balls. You get nowhere, he just keeps banging on about the same thing until everyone wants to punch him.

 

Edit - And I'm a Labour man! And I still want to deck Ed Balls!

[Trapper]

Purely out of interest it would have been very interesting to see this entire debate when Gordon was PM (hell or even Blair). Scottish independence from a Union led by two Scots?

[ZeroHour]

Purely out of interest it would have been very interesting to see this entire debate when Gordon was PM (hell or even Blair). Scottish independence from a Union led by two Scots?

 

Brown versus Salmond , I know what they would be suping anyway instead of water

By the end of it only drunk Scottish people can understand the dribles.

[Roberto]

It would be a powerful anti-Union message though. English Toff PM making an anti-Scottish can go it alone stance. However he would phrase the pro-Union argument it would come back to that.

 

I dunno. "England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all valuable members of the union. While each of them has a proud history that stands by itself, a united kingdom that plays to the strengths of all its members..." etc. etc.