Guardian, Snowden etc

[SYNACK]

SYNACK - No one says "Director of the NSA" unless its a formal introduction. In any case, unlike Snowden or Manning I didn't steal what I had sworn to protect and don't intend to reveal still classified information. If I outlive my 75 year NDA I'll be happy to spill all. Some of us in this world still want to live honourably and keep our word.

 

Using your logic (and that of your cohort) if your grandfather gave you some sage advice to do or not do something based on hard earned experience, you should just ignore it because you can't trust without solid evidence (and experience isn't empirical evidence after all) - so, the only way to get that evidence would be actually doing the opposite and finding out for yourself. So, go ahead jump off the bridge and see if you get hurt since you won't listen to "unsubstantiated" advice. It's why the world's going for broke in the crapshoot of life anyway...

Yea but my grandfather has something you don't credibility to me, some random Australian banging on about the great and well meaning USA has absolutely no weight, what does have weight is their visible and leaked actions, strong arming governments to rewrite local laws in order to enforce their lobbiests paid for laws in the states. Your views may be coloured to think that they spread only goodness and light but that is not what the available evidence suggests. If they want greater support perhaps they could stop acting like such tools. As to your argument, you are doing it from a point of weakness with no supporting evidence, you may as well be questioning my belief in the grand high teapot orbiting the planet, it has that level of weight, you are free to believe as you will but convincing people with 'because I say so' does not work without the threat of repercussions which brings us nicely back around to the subject at hand.

[seawolf]

Yea but my grandfather has something you don't credibility to me, some random Australian banging on about the great and well meaning USA has absolutely no weight, what does have weight is their visible and leaked actions, strong arming governments to rewrite local laws in order to enforce their lobbiests paid for laws in the states. Your views may be coloured to think that they spread only goodness and light but that is not what the available evidence suggests. If they want greater support perhaps they could stop acting like such tools. As to your argument, you are doing it from a point of weakness with no supporting evidence, you may as well be questioning my belief in the grand high teapot orbiting the planet, it has that level of weight, you are free to believe as you will but convincing people with 'because I say so' does not work without the threat of repercussions which brings us nicely back around to the subject at hand.

 

Yes,of course. The USA is obviously satan himself and the NSA and GCHQ are his armour bearers. So, I'll leave you to it. Carry on as you were.

[localzuk]

Yes,of course. The USA is obviously satan himself and the NSA and GCHQ are his armour bearers. So, I'll leave you to it. Carry on as you were.

 

Questioning the actions of our government and that of the USA is not the same as supporting the terrorists. It is actually more patriotic to keep your government in line than it is to blindly agree with everything they say and do, which is what you seem to be doing.

 

The evidence we've seen is that there are other agendas at play in this mess, not just protecting the citizens of the country.

[SYNACK]

Yes,of course. The USA is obviously satan himself and the NSA and GCHQ are his armour bearers. So, I'll leave you to it. Carry on as you were.

Way to take an idea and run with it, I did not call them Satan, just self interested which all governments seem to be at the moment, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff done by my government, your's or the UK's, the troubling thing is the democracy is now about choosing the faces of those who will do whatever they want. The people seem to have very little say in what they do anymore, just who's face gets included in the press releases. This is compounded by their view that the people have no right to know what their governments are doing and that they will happily write new laws and ramp up the force very quickly to defend themselves against the supposed democracy they are 'upholding'. I'm sure Iran does more than their fair share of dodgy stuff but then the western press is still allowed and probably even encouraged to call them on it.

[seawolf]

Questioning the actions of our government and that of the USA is not the same as supporting the terrorists. It is actually more patriotic to keep your government in line than it is to blindly agree with everything they say and do, which is what you seem to be doing.

 

The evidence we've seen is that there are other agendas at play in this mess, not just protecting the citizens of the country.

 

Actually, what I was doing is providing a more balanced view. I have stated that there are "dodgy" things done by all countries including my own (enough for there to have been 10 world wars probably), but that the primary purpose of the NSA and GCHQ was (and is) to protect the citizens of its respective countries and allies. Does that occasionally include protecting political interests and/or those of corporations at times - yes. More often though, it's a group of people diligently working to protect and defend. Stating such a heresy though only brings out the scoffers and scorn by the boat load it seems. Even though most of the "evidence" touted so far against what I have said are things actually done by the CIA - an agency I (and quite a few other NSA folks) have little respect for because they are too often arrogant cowboys. But, besides that little oversight, all of the arguments on here are just rock solid and airtight

 

So, I won't continue to "get between a mother bear and her cubs" anymore.

[SYNACK]

Actually, what I was doing is providing a more balanced view. I have stated that there are "dodgy" things done by all countries including my own (enough for there to have been 10 world wars probably), but that the primary purpose of the NSA and GCHQ was (and is) to protect the citizens of its respective countries and allies. Does that occasionally include protecting political interests and/or those of corporations at times - yes. More often though, it's a group of people diligently working to protect and defend. Stating such a heresy though only brings out the scoffers and scorn by the boat load it seems. Even though most of the "evidence" touted so far against what I have said are things actually done by the CIA - an agency I (and quite a few other NSA folks) have little respect for because they are too often arrogant cowboys. But, besides that little oversight, all of the arguments on here are just rock solid and airtight

 

So, I won't continue to "get between a mother bear and her cubs" anymore.

 

Meh, all good everyone is entitled to their opinions, as an untrustworthy sub-human (or citizen) I can only weigh the facts I have access to while I still have that right. I dislike being told that I can't possibly understand and will not be given the opportunity to. Assuming that everyone else is stupid and untrustworthy generally does not lead to the best PR so hopefully that goes some way to explain where this scorn justifiably comes from.

[pcstru]

The more you say, the more I can see that you have a general hatred for the US and appear quite fine with anything that harms the US.

That's surprising because I haven't said so. But you do seem to want to me to have said things that I haven't. What I have commented on is the use by the US of extra judicial killings (murder), torture and imprisonment with no recourse to legal representation. These are just facts. That some people celebrated the attack on the US is just another fact. If I had to express a considered personal opinion, I'd say I find all those things rather ... sad. I would definitely have to take issue with being "quite fine with anything that harms the US". I believe US foreign policy has been hugely harmful to the US and I'm not really 'fine' with it.

I likely have more to fear from people with angry, misinformed and prejudiced views like you than from any "jihadist". As to why I would comment on such subjects on a forum, I become frustrated seeing people make misinformed comments that are akin to someone finding a single page of Shakespeare's MacBeth and believing they then know the whole story. You see a couple of bad cops and then assume the whole police force is bad, corrupt, and operates in such a fashion. So, never mind, I've wasted my time as you will only believe what you think you've seen and wouldn't be likely to believe even DIRNSA himself if he told you to your face.

Ah, more appeals to your authority and your despair at us poor ignorant deluded fools. How you must weep for us of the mere general population, living as we do in our fantasy lands.

Yet...not nearly as unsafe as you would feel living in Pakistan.

Much of Pakistan is perfectly safe and the people are very hospitable and welcoming. Perhaps you should go.

But, hey you just might get to experience it one day, especially if there are more like you showing so little support (more like extreme animosity) towards those dedicated to protecting you - BBC News - Growing use of Sharia by UK Muslims

If people want to sort out their disputes using "Sharia Law", a local Christian counselling service or just a roll of the dice - that is pretty much up to them. Jewish courts have been in use in Britain for centuries and they don't seem to have subverted us so we are all living under the Beth Din. I expect such things are probably in use in the USA too. Perhaps you should campaign to have them shut down or something, before it's too late.

Edited August 26, 2013 by pcstru