Bromcom-PR

According to DfE/Becta Report 2010 (see below link), if LAs are still in existence for legal compliance - LAs and schools/academies will need to hold a fair and transparent procurement process. "Upgrade" is a redline! http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110130111510/http://localauthorities.becta.org.uk/upload-dir/downloads/becta_report_on_mis_2010.pdf Page 4 - para 1.18


Hi Banjo, Interesting scenarios. However at all times, one needs to overlay with key advice given in the DfE/Becta Report of 2010 which clearly singles out, re: move from legacy Windows -based application to "cloud": http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110130111510/http://localauthorities.becta.org.uk/upload-dir/downloads/becta_report_on_mis_2010.pdf Page 4 - para 1.18 "Generational changes in the nature of the products, for example, the upgrade from a DOS-based product to a Windows- based product, or from a local area network (LAN) based product to a “cloud” based product, would if challenged be likely to be regarded as sufficiently material to require the change to be competitively procured by the contracting authority (Paragraphs 6.8 to 6.12). "


Yes, you are not alone. A good number of Birmingham schools are also exactly doing the same.

Yes - you are spot on Michael!

I assume streaming will need extra component and extra licence? We now agree on more points than ones we disagree. For clarity we have been saying "up to" 50 fold less RAM and then proportionate processing, power, cooling and space. "IF your running it for multiple sites and have thousands of users then sure you need webapps ... " Exactly! Specifically LAs and MATs are more and more looking for centrally hosted solution and the economy of scale makes it a very attractive with Web based App MIS rather than desktop Windows based App MIS. For instance ARK MAT recently has chosen to go with only WebApp MIS solutions for replacing all of its academies desktop WindowsApp based MIS.

I see where we are talking cross purpose. RAM memory I am referring to is at the backend on the server 'hosting the Windows session'. Therefore for desktop MIS software for remote hosting you need: 1. 250 Mbyte Ram for each concurrent user session (instead of 5Mbyte) and associated extra processing, power, cooling and space etc.. 2. You need Citrix licensing for each user session 3. You need RDP licenses for each user session

We need to compare like with like. Open 10 user session running desktop MIS and check memory consumption. Do the same with browser based MIS and compare memory consumption. Happy to provide access to browser based MIS if you do not have any.

It will be interesting to see how your "workaround" will overcome a desktop Windows application demanding for each user session say 250MByte RAM vs browser only 5Mbyte.

No sarcasm meant at all. You may not find 100% guaranteed SLA but with 99.9% SLA your service should not be down for more than a total of about 43.2 minutes in a month. Same concern applies to all other services relying on Internet in the schools besides MIS.

Your concerns are valid and fundamentally applies equally for locally deployed MIS. You need to check the track record /references of the suppliers you are considering. I agree this is a little off-topic. On cost - it is more than the hardware and power. From IT Technician to Management time and even space. Cost model will not be linear but best to try to put estimate against each item in the list below for 30 server set up! Server Hardware (Technology Refresh) Server Maintenance Cost + Time Energy (Power and Cooling) Hardware Redundancy Security Maintenance Remote Access Services Additional Software Licenses Backup Management and Storage Space

I agree- however over the time and ultimately, one by one, as you move more and more to cloud (in the year 2020?), hopefully you will have more than 30 x £1,500 pa to save! The MIS can the first step. After all the Government mandate for 'Cloud First' for public sector will start to bite into schools and academies! Please see - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-adopts-cloud-first-policy-for-public-sector-it Still please drop me a PM - we should be able to help!

Please see a new thread under "Bromcom APIs".

This can not be right. Bromcom is one of the most competively priced MIS. Please call 020 8290 7171 and ask for Alex Williams to look into this for you.

We appear to be going round in a circle here - but here for the last round. 1. Force to change: No, you should never go there!!!!! There should be "a want" to change, not force. 2. What you have listed is a many many behind the scenes benefits that too the end user would not see 3. The teachers will only be concerned with the features available: Apparently teachers in this school /LA are not users of MIS!!! 4. XXXX is providing everything they need, do they have to change? : It is lack of education and awareness of what more one get from similar system eg efficiency, just one example you can open multiple windows when you are printing a long report (as per Carterton School' surprise!). If users are unaware of what more they can get from the alternatives then they will ask the question "why change?"

Many DOS applications were still in use under 'DOS emulator window' for many many years after Microsoft brought out Windows as new operating system. Such users get in a time warp and more they keep in legacy systems more difficult it gets to come out of it. Changing to 'true cloud' is like using true Windows applications and make use of features such as mouse, graphics, colour, multi-tasking etc.. Just as a Windows application user wouldn't accept monochrome, character based user interface screen or multi-tasking, a 'true cloud user' would want to give up elasticity of resources, up to 50-fold efficient use of memory, processing, power consumption etc... However as a school user you may be isolated from some of tense 'true cloud' benefits but tax payers pay for this through their nose and LA support staff neither benefits from 'true cloud' features such as multi-tenancy, dynamic allocation of resources on demand so that performance degradation is avoided. The fact that you say "the teachers never touch it " explains how MIS in your LA still is used as a back-office system rather than school-wide one total solution accessible from any device from anywhere eg by teachers remotely from home as well as parents (for parent portal).

On the question of 'better' is so often a subjective term, may be one can browse product entries on the #MISChallenge to check out at least a good number of products.

I couldn't agree more with @GrumbleDook. However I don know why anyone should assume that "... latest version of products ... add 43 1/2 new features ... but removes 23 others". Just be crystal clear: All arguments put forward by Bromcom hereto is very much on a key assumption that product features and the functionality needed by the user is on 'like with like'. Bromcom and others suppliers gripe is that local authorities/schools do not even come out to the market (via tenders/soft market research) - hence how will they know if new generation products (cloud) can deliver the features and functionality on 'like with like' basis or even more. The strange thing is that users of new generation MIS in fact are delighted with new features that for 10s of years have been denied. One of the best example is from an exam manager expressing her delight stating that besides meeting her previous MIS features there are new ones and many that stands out - as an example she says: "[With browser MIS software] you can open up several windows and work in different modules ... so while I am running a long report say in Exam module, I can be doing something else in MIS - say in curriculum module and also look at exam module easily for cross referencing. When we were printing in [our previous generation/legacy thick client MIS] I couldn't do anything else.". Exam Officer, Carterton School, in Oxfordshire. So all the 'true cloud' advantages expressed in this thread, should be assumed as 'extra' and not as a trade off against features or functionality.

Hi @scholarpack, I don't know why you need to go as back as 1999 and giving an example saying "one could host LotusNotes from 1999 via a VPN and sell access to customers but I'm pretty sure having that as a product on the 'Cloudstore' would raise some eyebrows.". You are absolutely right and applies equally MS Word 2013 if offered via a VPN and sell access to customers. Both offerings would fail NIST definition.

Hi @matt40k, I fully understand where you coming from. But there are number of stake holders in context of school MIS from tax-payers, learner, parents, LA. School management, School IT manager and of course the user. You need to repeat your survey/observations on impact of cloud for each stake holder and include cost, agility, ease of management, green environment etc. etc

Hi @GrumbleDook For those that will remember, in the days of DOS to WINDOWS transition, many software vendors who were left behind 'the new technology' claimed that there was nothing wrong with their DOS software, it was "Windows compatible" because it run perfectly as good as under DOS. What they didn't couldn't say that their DOS software was 'mouse unaware', could not make use of graphical UI, it wasn't multi-tasking etc.. 20 years on - it is the same story. Yes, client-server legacy 'thick client' software will indeed run as 'hosted' application as the Same old Software as a Service (SoSaaS) but will not be able to make use of the new capabilities that cloud concept brings and 'true cloud' application can deliver such as resource sharing and dynamic environment as per NIST definition - ie 'true cloud'. This has very significant cost implication as well as highly desirable features of 'true cloud'. This isn't about marketing ploy - it is real benefit of avoiding 50-fold wastage in resources because legacy thick Windows application can not be made 'cloud aware', just as DOS applications run without being "Windows aware" in 1990s/early 2000s. And indeed when one says " xxxxxx or yyyyyy have been running similar services for a number of customers for years ... ", they run just as if they run under locally installed Windows application except 'relocated centrally'. In doing so Windows applications claim complete PC equivalent RAM storage of 250 Mbyte (as an example) as resource for every instance of the application opened until the session closed by the user rather than relinquish when idle back to pool of shared RAM storage resource! Web application run with shared resources and as inherent key characteristics it will only need 5 Mbyte of RAM for each instant. If you have watched the video - here is a blog on it too: NIST and the cloudwashing of client-server SaaS . I hope the above helps.

@matt40k, With MS Dot.Net in 1999/2000, Bromcom was one of very first companies in the UK to start ground up developments with new C# language in beta 1 when everyone was committed and suggesting using Visual Basic. Dot.Net/C# was so primitive that at that time we could not print reports unless we used Delphi applications etc... So we will be very cautious with Win8 Apps for the time being. In the recent past our efforts have been focused on optimising Bromcom Cloud MIS for most school friendly and cost effective 'one solution' working with most wide devices and browser types -smartphones to tablets and from Macs to PCs etc... Please let me know if you come across any Win8 App that is more than a game or stand alone utility.

Hmm... OK, largely games and some standalone tools -yes? It will be interesting to check how well a client application with tightly coupled database will work. Do you see FaceBook or Salesforce.com rushing for this? Not forgetting prerequisites for all client PCs needing to move up to Win8!!! Talking real cost.

@Matt40, as far as we know there is no Apps concept for PCs yet! Unless I am missing something here. Yes, we all love apps on our hand-held devices and smart-phones but on PCs we all use browser for FaceTime and Twitter (probably most widely used two applications in the world!) + Salesforce.com, the most admired/respected cloud business application. If designed properly, you can maintain feature rich experience in browser. We are yet to see PC apps that of the type you are thinking of. Will be happy to hear some. We had a Teacher's app, a client software called WinFolder which was closest to an app because it was not based on traditional client-server - it had very small RAM footprint on PC and used a different technique (based on EARS backbone protocol) - but we replaced with Teacher's WebFolder and users are as happy. If you do not have browser based MIS then you lose the 50-fold efficiency in footprint on infrastructure in centrally hosted deployment. Then everyone will complain about the cost as earlier on in this thread.

If we accept that users face 'fake' vs 'true' cloud, the US and the UK government adapted NIST as 'gold standard' to define characteristics of cloud - true cloud. We haven't come across anyone challenging NIST being inadequate and if it is good enough for US and UK governments then it should be good enough for any school/LA. Whilst it is reasonably easy to identify 'fake' cloud by checking the fundamentals (see below), within 'true cloud' to our knowledge there is no attempt to quantify or rate these characteristics as to how well optimized they are. From outset one should weed out fake cloud application. Because fake cloud applications are non-starters and in terms of cost/resource sharing benefits of true cloud applications they do not come anywhere near even least optimized true cloud application. The most offensive fundamental characteristics of 'fake' cloud include: - Application designed for PC client environment and when hosted behaves just the same manner eg each instant demanding its private full RAM memory resource - Application code is non re-entrant hence code is not shared in whilst executed in memory The above characteristics cause fake cloud application requiring up to 50-fold(!!!) memory and processor usage than true cloud equivalent. You need to add up to 50 fold more cooling, space and power consumption etc.. In fact all happens in fake cloud, is re-location exercise from a PC running legacy application to centrally hosted - hence "Same old Software as a Service" (SoSaaS). In browser based MIS application, application code is re-entrant and one copy shared by 1,000s of users. Only small amount (5 Mbyte rather 250 MByte in case of legacy thick-client application) RAM is consumed for each instant of the application. I hope the above helps.

Interesting .... Is Corero 'hosted' or locally installed?