Which UPS?

[fiza]

Can anyone recommend a UPS other than by APC? Just configured one on their site and it comes to over £4k and then I need two of them for redundancy so nearly £9k

 

Havent had to spec up a UPS in years. Is this the kind of ball park figure most come in at?

[PotNoodleTech]

You must have a LOT of servers to need £8k worth of UPS?

 

Mine are well covered by 3 x SMARTUPS3000 which come to about £3000 in total including the network managment cards and temperature monitoring.

 

Could forseeably move just to 2 x 3000's by Sept due to heavy virtualisation and using reasonably energy efficient servers.

[fiza]

You must have a LOT of servers to need £8k worth .

 

I just used the APC configurator and put in the details of my 6 servers, 2 storage arrays and external tape drive. Basically the stuff in the 2 racks. That was the price the configurator came out with.

[glennda]

Look at Borri - 100 x better then apc, They also can come with a management switch (extra) so the UPS can die and the power go straight through from the mains without going near the ups (not passthrough). Give them a shout and they will come do a site survey and run through your options. If anything you can get a decent load measure.

[PotNoodleTech]

I just used the APC configurator and put in the details of my 6 servers, 2 storage arrays and external tape drive. Basically the stuff in the 2 racks. That was the price the configurator came out with.

 

If you want to list exactly what kit you have I'll let you know whether the configurator is right?

[RabbieBurns]

we use Eaton UPS across all our places

[localzuk]

I just used the APC configurator and put in the details of my 6 servers, 2 storage arrays and external tape drive. Basically the stuff in the 2 racks. That was the price the configurator came out with.

 

The price the configurator gives you will be *way* off. What model of APC unit did it suggest? I'm guessing the 10kVA models? You're looking more around £3.4k for each of those. However, I'd be wondering how it needs that much for the equipment you've just listed. We have 12 servers, a drive array, core switch, KVM and monitor plugged in to our 10kVA unit and it only hits about 50% utilisation.

[zag]

I just bought 2 of these

 

APC Smart-UPS X 3000 Rack/Tower LCD - UPS - AC 208/220/230/240 V - 2.7 kW - 3000 VA - RS-232, USB - 9 Output Connector(s) - 2U SMX3000RMHV2U | Insight UK

 

1.2k each

 

Very similar server setup to you

Edited May 16, 2012 by zag

[fiza]

@AButters

 

Some of our servers are quite old and will be replacing these as and when;

HP DL360 G5

HP DL380 G5 x 3

Dell R310

Dell R510

MSA60 x 2

LTO 3 External Tape Drive

Edited May 17, 2012 by fiza

[glennda]

Some of our servers are quite old and will be replacing these as and when;

HP DL360 G5

HP DL380 G5 x 3

Dell R310

Dell 510

MSA60 x 2

LTO 3 External Tape Drive

 

Should be able to use one of the Borri Rotation Unit's for this lot. Would be single phase in single out, the larger unit's support three phase if needed. (I bought the B500 at my last place).

[m25man]

3Kva is more than enough for most single cabinets nowadays 2 x 2 will provide redundancy but the key issue is runtimes and runtimes need battery packs.

 

So here is the other side of the coin.

Larger UPS are heavy and cost a lot of money to transport so do batteries.

Lead acid batteries decay very fast when not in use and cannot be repaired so they have a limited shelf life, hence these are not held in distribution but mostly sold direct from factory to customer. (only the smaller fast moving UPS are likely to be stocked locally).

 

My biggest issue of late with APC is that there are availability issues of certain models and cetain battery packs, for instance I ordered a UPS which I got next day but had to wait a month for the battery pack!

Another order I could have the battery but the UPS is no longer available! Whats the point in that!

 

I dont think APC themselves are a problem just that UPS in general are a commoditity that is not as easy to shift as Jaffa Cakes.

 

Set the desired current requirements, choose a suitable runtime, select the desired number of battery packs then find a supplier that can deliver all of them together in a reasonable timeframe.

 

Be aware that some of the cheaper units use pure switch mode rather than transformers, these are smaller (2u as opposed to 3 or 5u)and usually cheaper however the output can be more of a sawtooth or squarewave rather than a nice smooth 50Hz Sinewave and some devices simply do not like this type of output.

 

There is a lot bad Karma out there between APC and HP servers so do your homework carefully to make sure that the UPS solution your selecting is the most compatible for your needs and remember its not all about the loads nowadays as servers are half the power hungry machines they used to be its all about runtimes nowadays and be careful especially if buying a so called new or reconditioned UPS from EBAY!

 

If the batteries are more than a year old in your NEW UPS when you get it, its been lying around somewhere and the batteries are probably already shot.

On an APC there should be a label with the battery installed date on it, check this first!

[zag]

If the batteries are more than a year old in your NEW UPS when you get it, its been lying around somewhere and the batteries are probably already shot.

On an APC there should be a label with the battery installed date on it, check this first!

 

Isn't that why the deliver the units with the battery disconnected?

[m25man]

They are unplugged to avoid discharge and potential shorts or accidental power on whilst is transit.

SLA Batteries need to be maintained, eg. trickle charged otherwise the acid dissolves the lead.

 

What is the shelf life of an SLA battery?

All sealed lead acid

batteries self-discharge. If the capacity loss due to self-discharge is not

compensated for by recharging, the battery capacity may become unrecoverable.

Temperature also plays a role in determining the shelf life of a battery.

Batteries are best stored at 70 degrees F. When batteries are stored in areas

where the ambient temperature varies, self-discharge can be greatly increased.

Check the batteries every three months or so and charge if necessary.

 

Properly maintained and connected these batteries can give 5 years good life left on the shelf uncharged they will be dissolved in 12 months.

 

See item 3 http://www.apc.com/solutions/display.cfm?id=1371A38E-2B31-B5C1-CADC3E466F676960&ISOCountryCode=us

Edited May 17, 2012 by m25man

[fiza]

What do people have as their runtimes in schools? I am not sure what to go for. I always thought I just needed enough time for the Servers to shutdown gracefully but now it seems that people want continued availability.

[localzuk]

What do people have as their runtimes in schools? I am not sure what to go for. I always thought I just needed enough time for the Servers to shutdown gracefully but now it seems that people want continued availability.

 

Ours run for about 30 minutes at the moment. When we do our virtualisation project this summer, this will increase to an hour or more though.

 

Continued availability is great but none of the clients have UPSs...

[glennda]

In my last place I worked it out that we used to get power cuts every few weeks (being rural). these tended to never last longer then 10-15 mins. So I worked it out that we could keep it running for 15 mins. At which point they would shut down (for a prolonged outage). I gave it 25 mins for a full shutdown (12 physical hosts). So overall about 40/45 mins or so.

[SYNACK]

What do people have as their runtimes in schools? I am not sure what to go for. I always thought I just needed enough time for the Servers to shutdown gracefully but now it seems that people want continued availability.

 

If they want that then they need to be shown the quotes for UPS + generator + matinence + testing + fuel etc. Some expectations need to be shown up as to how expencive they really are.

[fiza]

Ours run for about 30 minutes at the moment. When we do our virtualisation project this summer, this will increase to an hour or more though.

 

Continued availability is great but none of the clients have UPSs...

 

So what does the 30 minutes or the hour give you? As you say the clients dont have UPSs.

[fiza]

In my last place I worked it out that we used to get power cuts every few weeks (being rural). these tended to never last longer then 10-15 mins. So I worked it out that we could keep it running for 15 mins. At which point they would shut down (for a prolonged outage). I gave it 25 mins for a full shutdown (12 physical hosts). So overall about 40/45 mins or so.

 

That makes sense. My main priority would be to allow the servers to shutdown gracefully rather than give users more time.

[localzuk]

So what does the 30 minutes or the hour give you? As you say the clients dont have UPSs.

 

It means no hassle having to start them up if the power outage is less than that.

 

Plus, our phone system is plugged into it.

[glennda]

That makes sense. My main priority would be to allow the servers to shutdown gracefully rather than give users more time.

 

The first 15 mins is just incase the power comes back on again, Then shutdown the servers gracefully.

[alttab]

That makes sense. My main priority would be to allow the servers to shutdown gracefully rather than give users more time.

 

i don't think it's unreasonable to start thinking of runtime in terms of hour+ rather than minutes these days. Particularly where you've virtualised using modern, more energy efficient servers with dual power supplies (which reduces the power draw on individual ups'es if you have 2 for redundancy)

 

this could apply to virtual servers, SAN and core switch. a redundant 3kva ups setup running at 60% capacity with one additional battery back could keep a single cab (assuming your core infrastructure now consists of 3 2u vm hosts rather than 12 or more physical boxes) going for quite a while. Certainly enough in case the power comes back on.