Suddenly... Upgrades!!

[X-13]

So... many... suggestions...

[SYNACK]

I'm afraid IT isn't a problem fixed as one big splurge of money - it absolutely has to be, and is better being an ongoing investment. Replace 20% of your machines each year with that generation Core-i3 and a reasonable amount of RAM (at least 4Gb right now, if not 8Gb - cheap as chips and all that). Put these machines into your main IT teaching rooms, where they are most demanding, then cycle out the machines being replaced (that are only a year old) into other places.

 

Thankyou, the all at once model ends up with all the computers being rubbish after 3 years then having to deal with them for another two. Rolling upgrades are where its at.

[Soulfish]

Thankyou, the all at once model ends up with all the computers being rubbish after 3 years then having to deal with them for another two. Rolling upgrades are where its at.

 

Yup - I'd totally agree with this. We have super overspecced amazing PCs (ask anyone thats been to visit - they're better specced than lots of peoples servers), but because of being a new build we had to buy everything now. Our replacement plans are...complicated. Currently we may try starting early replacements in year 4 and eeking others out to year 6/7 depending on how they wear. By that point we should be doing 20-30% replacements a year and be at a point where we have a manageable number of everything being replaced.

[glennda]

We have super overspecced amazing PCs (ask anyone thats been to visit - they're better specced than lots of peoples servers),

 

Xeons for Desktops! Enough said lol

[TechMonkey]

We were in a similar position. Sat down and discussed where we thought we should be, what technologies we thought we should be looking at and then worked out how to go there. We then broke it down in to sections that if money suddenly dried up we wouldn't be left in the lurch or could shrink the plan to core parts.

- We are going vanilla with a Virtual backend and full rebuild of the network (S2008R2 & W7) this year and funding for that was fully secured

- Next year we aim to get our infrastructure, tested, overhauled upgraded and re-layed where needed. If money dries up we will focus on core switch replacement and tidy up some of the 'rough' areas of the network.

- Next is thin client and full WiFi for BYOD provision and station replacements. If money dries up we will see what we can do with thin client prices or drop all together. Possible key WiFi provision

 

I would suggest getting a big picture so at least you know where you are aiming, even if you can't get there yet.

[X-13]

I would suggest getting a big picture so at least you know where you are aiming, even if you can't get there yet.

 

I tried but, like I said, they have no idea.

[sonofsanta]

I tried but, like I said, they have no idea.

 

A lack of Big Picture is an invitation to failure. A strategic direction - no matter how vague and bullet-pointed a list of Must, Should, Could - is absolutely essential, otherwise work you do now may need to be undone two years down the line, at which point, I refer back to my earleir comment of wasted money, undermined confidence.

 

Even if you just write it out yourself and present it to them on a side of A4, it's something.

[TechMonkey]

I agree with sonofsanta, do it yourself if needs be. You will know fairly well what has been asked for, where the school is lacking compared to discussions on here and what you think a network should have. So write it up and take it to them. Show the benefits and possibilities of things they won't understand (VM, Thin client BYOD etc) don't worry about costings yet just have a roadmap. Have a meeting and they will have an idea of what is possible and whether that then fits in with the little idea they have. You then have a compass for the next 3-5 years & if you make it robust with contingencies (the must, should, could style list) then you will be able to arrive even if it you arrive a little leaner and streamlined then you first planned for!

[X-13]

A lack of Big Picture is an invitation to failure. A strategic direction - no matter how vague and bullet-pointed a list of Must, Should, Could - is absolutely essential, otherwise work you do now may need to be undone two years down the line, at which point, I refer back to my earleir comment of wasted money, undermined confidence.

 

Even if you just write it out yourself and present it to them on a side of A4, it's something.

 

I agree with sonofsanta, do it yourself if needs be. You will know fairly well what has been asked for, where the school is lacking compared to discussions on here and what you think a network should have. So write it up and take it to them. Show the benefits and possibilities of things they won't understand (VM, Thin client BYOD etc) don't worry about costings yet just have a roadmap. Have a meeting and they will have an idea of what is possible and whether that then fits in with the little idea they have. You then have a compass for the next 3-5 years & if you make it robust with contingencies (the must, should, could style list) then you will be able to arrive even if it you arrive a little leaner and streamlined then you first planned for!

 

Well... I can see what I'm doing today. [Apart from meetings...]

[sonofsanta]

Well... I can see what I'm doing today. [Apart from meetings...]

 

If it helps, my Three Year Plan when I started was

Year One: get rid of cruddy old hardware, purge school of CRT monitors and beige workstations

Year Two: upgrade servers to Win2k8

Year Three: Win7

 

and details were filled in afterwards (such as using virtualisation for the servers). It doesn't have to be in depth, and SLT won't read anything greater than a page anyway. Just something more useful than "Year One: Make IT Good. Year Two: Make IT Gooder. Year Three: ? Year 4: Profit"

[X-13]

If it helps, my Three Year Plan when I started was

Year One: get rid of cruddy old hardware, purge school of CRT monitors and beige workstations

Year Two: upgrade servers to Win2k8

Year Three: Win7

 

and details were filled in afterwards (such as using virtualisation for the servers). It doesn't have to be in depth, and SLT won't read anything greater than a page anyway. Just something more useful than "Year One: Make IT Good. Year Two: Make IT Gooder. Year Three: ? Year 4: Profit"

 

Mine is even more simple.

 

1)Get rid of RM.

2)Get rid of RM.

3)???

4)PROFIT.

 

 

 

It's times like this I feel like I don't know what I'm doing...

Edited February 28, 2012 by X-13

[ToyHeartsFan]

“1)Get rid of RM.

2)Get rid of RM.”

 

I sense a theme here… lol

 

I can’t really comment on CC4 because I have never used it but CC3 worked well when I was supporting it at one school. I think CC4 had bugs and caused problems when they first rolled it out but it’s been around some time now and should be pretty stable. The client licenses are indeed quite expensive but everyone forgets that if they ditch it they then need to go out and buy separate programs for printer accounting, user management, netschool / netop (what ever teacher monitoring / control program is the current flavour of the month) etc…

 

It sounds like you are a one man band so replacing the network in house although not impossible could be very taxing. In your situation I would get a number of the major suppliers in and tell them you want a new solution with W7, 2008R2 servers etc… and see what they can offer you. I’m in a similar boat as we are still XP (Vanilla) but as of yet I have no idea what next years ICT funding is going to be and we don’t have the licences in place to upgrade yet.

 

If you are doing it in one go i.e. workstations, servers, software upgrade then you will probably need multiple quotes because of the cost. Yes you can go Vanilla but don’t rule out RM just yet give them a chance to quote with the others.

 

I only support one school now because it got to the point were there wasn’t enough hours in the day, one was cc3 the other vanilla both had around 700 pupils on role. The networks were like chalk and cheese i.e. local install and next to no security on the vanilla and RMs package creator and everything pretty much locked down on the RM network by default. I’ve locked the vanilla network down, setup wsus etc, etc… but don’t expect it to all happen over night vanilla networks are a lot of work but work well once you have got them setup.

[X-13]

but CC3 worked well when I was supporting it at one school.

 

It works ok here. There is the odd problem here and there, like the new HSP somehow removing one we actually needed... But for the most part it's ok. It's just the cost... So damn expensive.

 

 

The thing is, it was pretty much forced on the school by our LEA. No CCx = no support. Even though we pay for their tech support.

 

I've been looking at prices, for new desktops [i think we can skip the network upgrade. It was done recently.] and I now have a plan of sorts.

 

 

Linux for schools on the server, I'm kind of a linux-n00b, but from the looks of it, it's easy to use. I may give the demo a go to verify.

 

For classrooms, and this is the sneaky part, the linux client with a Windows 7 theme.

 

The main problem I found when I ran a linux test here, is that people don't know what their doing on it because it looks different.

 

Win7 theme should provide enough familiarity that they'll just get on with it, but without the licencing cost.

 

 

Anyone use Linux for schools here, that can give advice/suggestions? For instance... will the theme work?

[ToyHeartsFan]

It works ok here. There is the odd problem here and there, like the new HSP somehow removing one we actually needed... But for the most part it's ok. It's just the cost... So damn expensive.

 

 

The thing is, it was pretty much forced on the school by our LEA. No CCx = no support. Even though we pay for their tech support.

 

I've been looking at prices, for new desktops [i think we can skip the network upgrade. It was done recently.] and I now have a plan of sorts.

 

 

Linux for schools on the server, I'm kind of a linux-n00b, but from the looks of it, it's easy to use. I may give the demo a go to verify.

 

For classrooms, and this is the sneaky part, the linux client with a Windows 7 theme.

 

The main problem I found when I ran a linux test here, is that people don't know what their doing on it because it looks different.

 

Win7 theme should provide enough familiarity that they'll just get on with it, but without the licencing cost.

 

 

Anyone use Linux for schools here, that can give advice/suggestions? For instance... will the theme work?

 

 

EEEEK - you want to replace a managed cc3 network with linux when you are a linux noob

 

I would stick with your cc3 network until RM kill it off...

How much of the schools software will run on linux what about the schools mis solution? or are you = me

 

 

Your LEA was a bit out of line forcing cc3 on you but I do understand their point a single system is a lot easier to support.

 

"It's just the cost... So damn expensive" - What cost? The client licences? The cost of their hardware? The cost of RM support?

The client licences are expensive because they include things like printer management software. You can buy hardware from any supplier you want it doesnt have to be RM. You can drop all RM support except the updates because you are already paying your LEA for support.

 

Have your LEA said what their plans are for upgrading from cc3 to cc4 if its their recommended solution?

 

When your linux network breaks and your school cant call the LEA tech and your at home in bed with the flu who is going to fix it for them?

[X-13]

How much of the schools software will run on linux what about the schools mis solution? or are you = me

 

Trolololol

 

I've been going through what's installed and comparing it to what's actually used... and all anyone really uses is MS office. And there's a built in alternative.

 

MIS is web-based. Integris G2. [More RM!] It should be fine on linux/GNU systems if they have internet access and a web browser. Providing we stay with it, if we don't I'll find a Linux solution.

 

Other software either has alternatives or is available for Linux.

 

Linux for schools also contains the following on the site "No need for in depth knowledge of Linux server administration." so my lack of experience with Linux shouldn't be a problem.

 

As for who looks after things if I'm not around... it'd be the same person who does it now. The invisible man.

 

If I'm not there, it gets logged with the LEA support, but that takes a while to sort. By which time I've usually returned and sorted it myself. Seeing as I'm on here, and our HT respects your opinions, I can see him [or our IT-co-ord] signing up and posting questions.

 

Whack it in *nix and Robert is your father's brother.

[SYNACK]

Linux for schools also contains the following on the site "No need for in depth knowledge of Linux server administration." so my lack of experience with Linux shouldn't be a problem.

 

Whack it in *nix and Robert is your father's brother.

 

yeap, they are probably right... untill it breaks... then your boned.

[CAM]

No no no no no no no no no no! X, Take that idea outside right now and shoot it. Even if you don't need Linux server administration experience, desktops are equally as hard to administer for a rookie! If you don't know what you are doing, don't go for Linux! Take this from someone who has been through Linux modules in a degree and had a play with it both at home and work!

 

It doesn't matter how much software looks on the screen, it is still vastly different underneath and Windows-based software may not run reliably if at all. You will spend ages doing compatability testing, fixing things that aren't working as expected, sorting hardware glitches and trying to source drivers with often confusing information and streams of commands in Terminal. An experiment in a lab is one thing (and by all means try that with your defunct kit!), but a whole live business network? Employment suicide.

[X-13]

yeap, they are probably right... untill it breaks... then your boned.

 

Then again, if the management console on CCx dies [or the server os, or the desktop os...] we have no-one to turn to. [Apart from RM who just reinstall or say it isn't their problem. "you installed 3rd party software which is causing the problem. It's up to you to fix it."]

 

Our LEA support can only offer so much help aswell.

 

Example:

 

Our Library software broke. They faffed around and fixed it, it broke again. They faffed, it worked... it broke.

 

I got onto them and was told "We don't support this software. It was just a good will gesture."

 

So, they come onto our network. Messed about with settings and permissions [no-one knows what they actually did... even the people who supposedly did it.]. And now all we get is a "too bad."

 

We had to chase up the manufacturers of the software, after trying half a dozen different things, only to be told to install it DIFFERENTLY than how our LEA did. [so they did it wrong?] That sorted everything.

 

 

See also; all the problems we've had with drivers. Which I've had to sort. On my own.

 

 

 

Seriously. When things go wrong now, we're boned. *nix, OSX, Windows... it doesn't matter. If it dies, I have to sort it.

 

 

Employment suicide.

 

I always knew I'd go out with a bang.

 

 

Nah, but in all seriousness... the *nix thing is where I WANT to end up with this network. Vanilla is what I'm suggesting. [i mentioned *nix with Win7 skins and our HT actually liked it...]

Edited February 28, 2012 by X-13

[nicholab]

Make sure you consider the whole network Workstations, Wireless, Switches, Servers, Primary storage, Backup and internet connection for any cost calculations. It would be worth doing a back of the fag packet calculating for replacing what you go and also for adding new stuff and give a yearly cost. I think HT can forget the basic a network were you can log on and no time is wasted is as good as shiny toys. Put some picture in HT/SMT love pictures. Edited February 28, 2012 by nicholab

[SYNACK]

No matter how much it looks like Windows it does not behave like it and making it look the same will probably cause you more greif as people will try Windows things and weird things will happen which is worse than a different interface that behaves differently.

 

Given drivers and the epic levels of support that OSS gets you will definatly be busy being told to read the manual, submitting fault reports into various digital black holes and learning how to code to actually fix it yourself and write the missing drivers. Cynical, yes, but all my experiences with linux have ended this way.

 

If you know all your hardware is supported and you have a very training freindly budget and schedule for staff it may be doable but unless you are already a kernal dev for linux go for a vanilla network. Its been done and so people actually know about it, there are resources/people/companies everywhere that can help as opposed to a few difficult to get a hold of people.

 

Using linux schoolwide is like building the school out of log cabins from newly felled trees instead of dropping a bunch of fully apointed prefabs in. You can do it but it is going to be some heavy work as comparitivly you will be very alone.

[CyberNerd]

we have loads of linux servers. I find them MUCH easier to look after, manage and migrate than any of our windows machines. They save time and usually use significantly less resources than windows to do the same thing. We use windows for SIMS, Citirx and currently active directory. I can see us dropping AD in the next 3-5 yrs.

Linux isn;'t harder or more complicated than windows, its just different. If you new to windows server it isn't any more difficult to pick up linux. You will need to use the CLI though, but you have to with windows too. The only real difference is in application they support.

[X-13]

Make sure you consider the whole network Workstations, Wireless, Switches, Servers, Primary storage, Backup and internet connection for any cost calculations. It would be worth doing a back of the fag packet calculating for replacing what you go and also for adding new stuff and give a yearly cost. I think HT can forget the basic a network were you can log on and no time is wasted is as good as shiny toys. Put some picture in HT/SMT love pictures.

 

The wireless is new and the switches were just upgraded. If I put them in the calculations I'm likely to get a flat what.

 

Desktops need to be replaced, and I'm talking about all of them.

 

I've seen a nice one from Stone[?] that is the same price as one our HT was looking at. [but this has better specs. i3, 4gb RAM... etc]

 

 

Same with the server. It's 2003 and multi-function. I've always been wary of it being in charge of everything... [it's also died at least twice.]

 

Using linux schoolwide is like building the school out of log cabins from newly felled trees instead of dropping a bunch of fully apointed prefabs in. You can do it but it is going to be some heavy work as comparitivly you will be very alone.

 

http://www.sygnus.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/foreveralone.png

 

we have loads of linux servers. I find them MUCH easier to look after, manage and migrate than any of our windows machines.

 

Ok... now I'm confused.

 

Some people are saying it's harder and I'll break it... some are saying it's easier...

[ToyHeartsFan]

and all anyone really uses is MS office. And there's a built in alternative..

Yes but you immediately have a compatability issue when trying to open old docs or if someone from outside the school sends you a file which is the problem with open office etc...

 

Other software either has alternatives or is available for Linux..

It sounds like the school has not invested in software, if you can find free alternatives great but you will need to provide training for the staff / children and you wont be able to install SEN software etc... that is designed for a MS OS. How exactly do you deploy software on linux anyway? It takes about 5min when you have an msi on a MS network I wouldnt know where to start on a linux network.

 

 

Linux for schools also contains the following on the site "No need for in depth knowledge of Linux server administration." so my lack of experience with Linux shouldn't be a problem..

sorry but - lol

 

If I'm not there, it gets logged with the LEA support.

So your LEA told the school they had to use CC3 because that is all they will support and your school is now going to log linux related issues with them...

 

If you were a linux god I would still have some reservations but for a noob...

 

By all means (as long as you have got some form of esafety system that works on linux) use your old PCs to run linux for web browsing or any other specific tasks you have identified but replacing a working CC3 network with linux is just...

[X-13]

Yes but you immediately have a compatability issue when trying to open old docs or if someone from outside the school sends you a file which is the problem with open office etc...

 

I've never had compatibility issues between Open and MS.

 

No changes made to either.

 

It sounds like the school has not invested in software, if you can find free alternatives great but you will need to provide training for the staff / children and you wont be able to install SEN software etc... that is designed for a MS OS. How exactly do you deploy software on linux anyway? It takes about 5min when you have an msi on a MS network I wouldnt know where to start on a linux network.

 

It's not that we haven't invested in software... It's just no-one actually uses it.

 

We have a LOT of software sitting about. I've reminded people about it many times.

 

 

So your LEA told the school they had to use CC3 because that is all they will support and your school is now going to log linux related issues with them...

 

Actually, by April we may not have LEA support. No-one is quite sure what's happening... I heard the phrase "they're in meltdown" this morning.

 

 

 

Anyway... can we move away from the "Linux is teh hard... u gonna break it. Uze teh Windows".

 

Linux is an option. So is Windows. I'm equally open to either.

Edited February 28, 2012 by X-13

[SYNACK]

Ok... now I'm confused.

 

Some people are saying it's harder and I'll break it... some are saying it's easier...

 

Servers, sure they are easier as its the techs that need to know it, the clients are still knowen and supported Windows. It can be a pain dealing with them though as pushing stuff to a whole network of Win pcs is trivial with a win server but an convoluded issue without. Central auth is not easily possible with windows accounts on a linux server as there is no direct ldap connection between XP or higher that supports the standard encryption so you need to disable it on all clients. Its a practicality and ease thing. That and for me I hate reading through war and peace worth of config files to get things going.