Self-extracting exe package - is this a problem?

[mlapworth]

Would any of you envisage any problems with running an exe file on a typical school set-up but where the exe in question is a self-extracting package (ie. made with iexpress)?

 

It works fine on all my computers, but I thought I'd better check it with the experts.

 

FYI the exe is a program aimed at teaching languages in primary schools. The installation is very straightforward. The exe that is installed to users' computers is a self-extractor.

[jamesreedersmith]

Why not make it a deployable MSI and make us all a lot happier!

[mlapworth]

To clarify, the exe file will be deployed by msi. But once installed, the exe itself contains various components packaged so that they self-extract (into a temporary folder, I guess?) at runtime. The reason for this is so that the files that accompany the exe file (the content files, if you like) can't be *easily* copied and redistributed.

[jamesreedersmith]

So a techie wouldnt right click and then extract them using his favourite compression utillty and drop them in a sensible folder and set permissions appropriatly and run the application as any other application rather than a convoluted mixture that will need tweaking in each environment beacase of each persons permissions etc.

 

I would do it properly and as disigned in the first place.

[mlapworth]

So you're saying there IS a problem with what I wanted to do?

[jamesreedersmith]

Potentially yes and most technicians would therfore circumvent your way and do as i have discribed anyway - you may as well therfore do it that way in the first place and make us all like you and comment on a well designed and produced app and deployment.

[mlapworth]

OK. Thanks for the time taken to reply. I'm a little disappointed as I was trying to protect audio files from being freely distributed. I wouldn't mind a 2nd opinion...

[CyberNerd]

OK. Thanks for the time taken to reply. I'm a little disappointed as I was trying to protect audio files from being freely distributed. I wouldn't mind a 2nd opinion...

 

The better method would be for it all to be HTML (5) and packaged in a SCORM file for use on a Virtual Learning Environment. This way no-one will see the audio files as they are hidden on the webserver, and it only needs installing once, thus is a cleaner install method for deploying to 1000's of clients. It will also work on Mac's linuxes, ipads, androids and most other equipment that lurk around in schools - and be accessible for teachers at home to plan lessons. But I guess your stuck with windows exe's.

[Arthur]

To clarify, the exe file will be deployed by MSI. But once installed, the exe itself contains various components packaged so that they self-extract (into a temporary folder, I guess?) at runtime.

Please don't do this.

[SYNACK]

I agree with both comments to an extent, for the MSI option just have it act like a normal program, a self extracting program could have all sorts of issues with permissions and space for the extraction along with making it slower to start up. Most schools have a bunch of junky PCs as well and something that has to run a pointless exctract at startup is not endearing.

 

If you want to lock away the audio a bit you could do something like writing your own RAW blob to the filesystem, basiclly all the audio files binary data end to end in one large file with an index either separatly encrypted or in your app itself that has the start and end positions. Nice and easy to read from a data point of view and difficult to seporate out easily without the index. A lot more discouraging than the extract method which is trivial to bypass.

 

TBH package it properly as an MSI with adm and admx files for any configuration. Make it sensible, only writing to user accessable areas and reg keys so that it can run as a limited user and you will be leagues ahead of the competition. If it just works nicely then it is unlikely to be cracked open as there would be no need to fix anything and the less annoying it is the less malace and so less chance there is of piracy anyway.

[mlapworth]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess it's not the news I wanted, but I'm glad I asked. I'd rather not end up with problems further down the line.

[AngryTechnician]

As SYNACK mentioned, if you are trying to prevent audio files from being too simple to copy, you could embed them into a resource file. I don't know what development environment you're using, but Visual Studio has built-in support for storing and retrieving data in a resource file.

[mlapworth]

Thanks for your reply. There are already resources embedded in the main exe. What I was trying to do here was to include about 50MB of mainly audio files (but lots of other smaller ones as well) in a self-extractor of about 20MB. It all works fine if I leave them as separate from the main exe. But I wanted to make the exe smaller and simpler to distribute, as well as making it harder to copy and distribute the extra files.

 

I presumed that using the iexpress tool which is part of Windows (type iexpress in the run or search box of the start menu if you're not familiar with it) would create a self-extractor that would work in most (Windows) environments without complications...

 

The link on this page downloads an exe that has been packaged in this way (by me). It's a free sample program. It doesn't have an installer - the downloaded file is a self-extracting exe that should run from anywhere. Would this really be a problem on school computers?:

¡Es posible! - Michel Thomas Spanish course for schools - free sample download - taskmagic's posterous

[jamesreedersmith]

Fails instantly on my locked down pupil profile - tries to write to a random location!

[mlapworth]

Thanks for having a look. It works beautifully on my xp and win7 computers. It looks like I'll have to go back to leaving the content unpacked.

 

Here's an example of how it looks when left unpacked. Again, no installer for this sample. (There will be for the main program.) You can run the exe from anywhere as long as you (a) have unzipped it and (b) maintain the file/folder structure

TaskMagic3 Spanish Sample Unit - En la cafetería - Free download - taskmagic's posterous

[CyberNerd]

Taskmagic - should have known. The bain of our lives, it needs some serious work to make this program usable.

 

Problems - our language dept use taskmagic, but they INSIST on setting taskmagic exercises as homework. They upload a taskmagic file to the VLE (which just being a text file, the students can cheat on anyway) Then none of the students can access the file because it requires taskmagic. Then I get inundated with students parents phone me up so I can explain how to install taskmagic on their shiny new mac. The best solution here is to convert all the taskmagic files to hotpotatoes (I have a script for this) and put them on the VLE as intended.

 

@mlapworth PLEASE spend some time re-writing this program, it COULD be REALLY good, but it is just a PiTA as it stands - it would be a really good commercial rival to hotpotatoes if you could just change the development environment.

[mlapworth]

Thanks for having a look. It works beautifully on my xp and win7 computers. It looks like I'll have to go back to leaving the content unpacked.

 

Here's an example of how it looks when left unpacked. Again, no installer for this sample. (There will be for the main program.) You can run the exe from anywhere as long as you (a) have unzipped it and (b) maintain the file/folder structure

TaskMagic3 Spanish Sample Unit - En la cafetería - Free download - taskmagic's posterous

[mlapworth]

Hmm... well, I'd like to say "thank you", but...

 

Version3 files are not text files. They have text, audio and images embedded into one binary file. Your script wouldn't convert them to hotpot files.

If you seriously see TM and hotpot as offering something similar to language teachers, then I think you are really missing the point.

I know what you mean about Mac compatibility. That is a BIG shame. Perhaps the answer would be for students not to set the exercises as compulsary homework. It is much better used in class either with an IWB or in IT rooms. That said, students who DO install TM at home (which is completely free) will get a far better learning experience, much more games, much more language repetition than they would with hotpots.

BUT there are lots of other tools out there, many of them free, that will create web-based or flash exercises that can be used along with a VLE. As I said, TaskMagic is primarily intended to be used in school.

[CyberNerd]

Hmm... well, I'd like to say "thank you", but...

 

Version3 files are not text files. They have text, audio and images embedded into one binary file. Your script wouldn't convert them to hotpot files.

If you seriously see TM and hotpot as offering something similar to language teachers, then I think you are really missing the point.

I know what you mean about Mac compatibility. That is a BIG shame. Perhaps the answer would be for students not to set the exercises as compulsary homework. It is much better used in class either with an IWB or in IT rooms. That said, students who DO install TM at home (which is completely free) will get a far better learning experience, much more games, much more language repetition than they would with hotpots.

BUT there are lots of other tools out there, many of them free, that will create web-based or flash exercises that can be used along with a VLE. As I said, TaskMagic is primarily intended to be used in school.

 

The problem is one of mission creep. If it's used just in school it is fine - but teachers do want to encourage teaching and learning outside the classroom and it makes sense that their resources are usable for students at home, in libraries and on a bunch of equipment that you wouldn't make taskmagic run on. It's the reason WHY schools have VLE's and major companies are putting resources into making educational apps run on VLE's.

Were only on version 2. I'm really discouraging an upgrade. Infact if it was centrally procured it wouldn't have been bought at all as it doesn't meet the colleges IT vision of making educational resources available to all students at all times on a ubiquity of platforms. I think you need to up your game - spend less time learning how to package things and a bit more time on learning HTML5.

[mlapworth]

The problem is one of mission creep. If it's used just in school it is fine - but teachers do want to encourage teaching and learning outside the classroom and it makes sense that their resources are usable for students at home, in libraries and on a bunch of equipment that you wouldn't make taskmagic run on. It's the reason WHY schools have VLE's and major companies are putting resources into making educational apps run on VLE's.

Were only on version 2. I'm really discouraging an upgrade. Infact if it was centrally procured it wouldn't have been bought at all as it doesn't meet the colleges IT vision of making educational resources available to all students at all times on a ubiquity of platforms. I think you need to up your game - spend less time learning how to package things and a bit more time on learning HTML5.

 

So you're basically against it because it's a Windows program... That's it.

 

Thank you for your constructive advice.

[morganw]

I've been using Taskmagic version 1 and 3 and have issues running a silent unattended install through our usual deployment systems. By creating another process for the extractor you will mess up timings and dependencies, the deployment system thinks the program has finished installing when it hasn't because it isn't aware of the file extraction. In the end I've hard coded a timer to wait for 3 minutes to make sure that everything goes through. By using silent self extractors you also risk triggering anti-virus events if some malicious code decides to start using the same extraction techniques that you are using. Add to this that comdlg32.ocx is constantly unregistering itself when Windows Updates install so the program can't run correctly most of the time anyway.

 

I'll just echo the above comments, I really think you should update your development environment. The program is worth the effort, you can tell that when you see staff and students using it, but there are technical factors dragging it down. If you had this working in a web browser and could demo it to some people on an iPad you would make a fortune.

[CyberNerd]

So you're basically against it because it's a Windows program... That's it.

 

Thank you for your constructive advice.

 

I'm telling you the problems that our teachers are experiencing with it.

[morganw]

So you're basically against it because it's a Windows program... That's it.

 

Thank you for your constructive advice.

 

I think the problem is that the way the program is used in schools requires a lot of file trading both internally and externally. Having it as a Windows only programs makes this process a lot harder for everyone involved.

[mlapworth]

I've been using Taskmagic version 1 and 3 and have issues running a silent unattended install through our usual deployment systems. By creating another process for the extractor you will mess up timings and dependencies, the deployment system thinks the program has finished installing when it hasn't because it isn't aware of the file extraction. In the end I've hard coded a timer to wait for 3 minutes to make sure that everything goes through. By using silent self extractors you also risk triggering anti-virus events if some malicious code decides to start using the same extraction techniques that you are using. Add to this that comdlg32.ocx is constantly unregistering itself when Windows Updates install so the program can't run correctly most of the time anyway.

 

I'll just echo the above comments, I really think you should update your development environment. The program is worth the effort, you can tell that when you see staff and students using it, but there are technical factors dragging it down. If you had this working in a web browser and could demo it to some people on an iPad you would make a fortune.

 

This is not for the TaskMagic program, but a separate standalone program based on TaskMagicPlay but with content included.

 

Thanks for your comments. Thanks for the positives about teacher and student use of TaskMagic. I agree that it's worth updating, and this will happen. But for now, I just had this question about whether or not to use the self-extractor for this finished standalone program (NOT - I get the message), and then it got nasty...

[CyberNerd]

and then it got nasty...

 

I didn't mean to be nasty about it - just we do have significant issues with file compatibility and our SLT really want problems like this to be resolved. Looking forward to future versions for our androids