Is an Ipad a suitable teacher laptop replacment

[GrumbleDook]

1. The simple question is why reinvest SO much time and money to support 1 device that really struggles to add anything to the way people teach. Its a new form factor...

 

Really? It doesn't make any difference? So it isn't as if I can pick say ... 48 ways that it can make a difference? I am not saying it is the only device that can make a difference and if people want to have a look at a few examples of a wide range of how things can make a difference then at Interesting Ways | edte.ch and yes ... sometimes change in other areas need something to start it. We can argue forever about which is the tail and which is the dog ... but sometimes it is hard to see the difference.

 

DO NOT USE RANTS IN BTRD AGAINST PEOPLE. ITS A RANT FORUM, YOU HAVE SAID SILLY THINGS IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT TOO. THAT IS THE POINT OF BTRD!

That "you said it in a rant so I will use it against you" will stop people posting.

 

BTRD is not just a RANTS forum ... it is also "let's hide so our post isn't indexed forum" ... or "let's use some language we wouldn't get away with somewhere else" forum ... I didn't pick out any examples and that would not have been good netiquette, it was a generalised statement and I very much doubt that such a generalisation will stop members ranting in there, but don't ever try to turn round and say that we should ignore that people get frustrated by it just because it is in a particular area of the site. Sometimes people want to rant because they need to, and sometimes it is because they want some support. If we only ever make constructive comments in follow ups in BTRD then they will never be found on Google or by the occasional browser. And stuff that happens BTRD can sometimes be prevented by some careful advice elsewhere. If a vendor discovered a thread about their product and fixed stuff even though it was a rant should they never bring up that they saw it?

 

I'm happy to have a discussion offline about whether any reference to BTRD can ever be made but there is not a big sign to say don't do it. I made a reasonable comment based on a common fact. In fact, I only respond back about it here so that folk can see the reason why it was referenced.

 

You should know why iMovie is better, thats what we need to know as IT staff, the reasons behind it. We dont need to know how iMovie works we just need to know what make the difference so that we can access if there are any better solutions...

Yes there will be, like there are teachers who buy software without having a clue what it does, if you look you will find lots of examples of that too and honestly I would be suprised you hadnt experienced that yourself. TBH I would almost hazard there are MORE teachers with less of an IT clue then there are sadistic NM's that dont have a clue, the numbers game is simply on my side for that.

 

I picked iMovie for a particular reason ... and I used the comment about scene selection because I am aware of what the difference is ... and the main issue was that one exam board and scheme worked better with iMovie than Premiere Element or Final Cut Express ... and that was chosen by a particular teacher purely on the educational targets of the exam board. In a similar strand the methods used for controlled assessment vary greatly, even within the same exam board and subject, but for different modules have different requirements. Often the 'jumping through hoops' is for particular tasks and some software is better for it than others. I try to argue that teachers should look at multiple ways it can be done so there is the choice ... but that *has* to be driven by educational need, and often by subject specialism. You are not telling me that you think we should all be subject specialists in every area?

 

Even outside of BTRD there are folk who have negatively, when it has been suggested that they become more educationally aware to allow them to have a better chance of helping make the decisions about what to use and why, and have turned round and said they don't have time or are not interested. This argument has been going back beyond BSF and beyond this site ... go and dredge the archives for the circular arguments about RiscOS, Linux/OSS and Windows for educational suitability that went on over at uk.education.schools-it?

 

TBH I think all should consider Honeycomb/Windows 8 (or a modded UI for W7) rather then a locked in ipad that costs more with more limitation. I would consider NO tablet really this year as none are really there yet. They have only been out a year people....

 

And breath...

 

Yep, I agree that there will be other tablets that can do wonderful things and that most of the ideas used with the iPad will be transferable to other devices ... the problem is that the iPad is here ... now ... as is the iPod touch (which can be just a good for many things and far cheaper) and there is nothing wrong with finding you have a need, then going for it ... knowing that you will learn some lessons and be able to make use of that again. The point I am trying to get over is that just because a member here doesn't think there is a need it doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

I would like to point out that although the iPad is fairly new the idea of tablets in education or handheld devices is not ... it has been around for quite a while. Some folk who are using iPads have previously used PDAs and improved on things, they have used XP Tablet edition and have improved on things ... so it is not new ... it is just fairly new from Apple ... oh ... they did do a fair bit over in the States with Newtons though ...

 

And breathing helps ... especially between sips of a nice double Talisker.

[GrumbleDook]

No teacher left behind, that worked so well for students in the states, why is it that LCD as an acronym is getting so much more valid play in the education sector than in IT - sure in the case of education it stands for lowest common denominator.

 

We must have this to make up for the abilities of the teachers, we can't have that because it pushes the abilities of the teachers. Its not like they are paid to do a job and might be expected to learn how to use the tools that accompany it... Oh wait.

 

I hate to point out that we violently agree but ... the only way you can deal with some staff is by communicating with them about what is out there, making sure that it is not just an 'IT Team' thing and that it fits in with want the school is trying to do. Putting in Sharepoint as a VLE might be overkill or pointless to many .. especially Moodle users, but when it also changes the way the Admin Office functions, sorts out about storage issues and reduces printing costs ... then brilliant ... it is an IT solution. But when similar is done to change the way people work and technology is not involved (eg ISO 9001) then that is different? Not really ... something has been the catalyst for change. It is not about LCD ... it is about setting a minimum standard and getting people up there. The downside is that some people view it the same way BSF was viewed ... drag others down to that same level instead of setting things up to be allow the more able to do more. Heck, you don't do that with students .. why the hell should we allow it with staff.

 

If we say staff should be able to learn for themselves, then brilliant ... but when they do and they want something different to what we want do we drag them down again? If you want to change behaviour in the school do you just change the detention policy? Do you also change the rewards scheme? the uniform? the standard of teaching?

 

To be honest, it doesn't matter what tech is chosen ... if any ... the only thing that matters is that someone knows there is a need for something, has a proper, well thought out plan for it, can check that they are making progress and can get it done. That plan will balance out the choices they make on the way. Get people the information that is need for those choices, don't get bogged down when you don't agree with them, try to get people to share why they are different to what you think ... including the simple answer of "school politics" ... and then crack on. I've seen a very workable plan to get folk to drop nearly all tech from schools ... and this is from a school completely reliant on tech for everything from attendance and meals, to eportfolios and online exams.

[sted]

1. The simple question is why reinvest SO much time and money to support 1 device that really struggles to add anything to the way people teach. Its a new form factor....

It has only been out for a year and now it seems to be a MUST to reinvest all the software schools bought when budgets were bigger to support a very expensive device that many would struggle to see as improving the way teachers teach. Yes they are nice but surely a honeycomb/windows based one makes FAR FAR more sense then being locked into apples proprity device. Hell the iDevices only support a subset of html 5 and that depends on what firmware your running. Like IE it has its own *special* features that wont work on anything else too. I would STRONGLY recomend no school purchases ANY iDevice software for teaching, your paying money into a locked enviroment which forces you to continue to buy upgrades, yes this is kinda like Windows but at least windows has much longer life span unlike these joyus devices. Maybe if your fully HTML 5 and have no resources that are actual software maybe but even then the same point stands about buying iOS software. At least with Honeycomb your getting a cheaper device with flash and java support.

 

 

honycomb tabs should be avaliable any time now the bricks and mortar shopr release (no i have no idea why thats first either) of the asus eeepad transformer is tomorrow online 18th the motorolla zoom/acer thingy and iirc the samsung tab are all due later this month

[mthomas08]

How can an IT support professional support their workforce without knowing exactly how they use the systems provided, and how they do their jobs? When people have ideas, they bring them to me to see if they're feasible, and if we can afford it and it would work we will look at doing it. We don't buy things simply because they're new and someone wants something shiny. We identify issues first, then fill that gap with something.

 

We have to fix their issues every day, day in, day out. You don't need to produce questionnaires to figure this out. We vet all the software packages and hardware purchases in our schools (or at least we should!).

 

I was thinking the same, I work closely now with the head of ICT especially now with Frog coming and shes the head of the project with my self being the top admin. I actually do know a lot of staff personally as well.

 

We do know exactly what staff need and want, the want part we can not always cover but the need part we can. Staff do want their equipment to load fast and access the internet all day. As for Ipads we have a MAC and an IPad sitting in our office and every time a staff member notices it even they want one because it looks really nice and they do also admit, they wouldnt use it as much as their laptop. It actually shocks us here to hear them say things, they "seem" to know what they are talking about when it comes to the IPads, even a Deputy head who enjoys his gadgets (He pushed for IPhones) has admitted getting them would be a waste of money at the moment although he does want one personally.

Edited April 5, 2011 by mthomas08

[SYNACK]

I hate to point out that we violently agree but ... the only way you can deal with some staff is by communicating with them about what is out there, making sure that it is not just an 'IT Team' thing and that it fits in with want the school is trying to do. Putting in Sharepoint as a VLE might be overkill or pointless to many .. especially Moodle users, but when it also changes the way the Admin Office functions, sorts out about storage issues and reduces printing costs ... then brilliant ... it is an IT solution. But when similar is done to change the way people work and technology is not involved (eg ISO 9001) then that is different? Not really ... something has been the catalyst for change. It is not about LCD ... it is about setting a minimum standard and getting people up there. The downside is that some people view it the same way BSF was viewed ... drag others down to that same level instead of setting things up to be allow the more able to do more. Heck, you don't do that with students .. why the hell should we allow it with staff.

 

If we say staff should be able to learn for themselves, then brilliant ... but when they do and they want something different to what we want do we drag them down again? If you want to change behaviour in the school do you just change the detention policy? Do you also change the rewards scheme? the uniform? the standard of teaching?

 

To be honest, it doesn't matter what tech is chosen ... if any ... the only thing that matters is that someone knows there is a need for something, has a proper, well thought out plan for it, can check that they are making progress and can get it done. That plan will balance out the choices they make on the way. Get people the information that is need for those choices, don't get bogged down when you don't agree with them, try to get people to share why they are different to what you think ... including the simple answer of "school politics" ... and then crack on. I've seen a very workable plan to get folk to drop nearly all tech from schools ... and this is from a school completely reliant on tech for everything from attendance and meals, to eportfolios and online exams.

 

I have no doubt that we do agree to a point when you look at our respective opinions from the right angle. My current views and mood are tainted quite badly at the moment by the direction that ICT in education is taking in NZ which is a truely asperational LCD situation.

 

ITs role as I see it is to look at the problems and come up with the best solutions to solve them within the budget. I expect the teachers to be able to be trained or at least make the effort to use basic tools required by theh organisation. If they were employed in the real world and refused to learn how to use the tools required they would be fired. Teachers however have such powerful unions that they simply bend the government and their employers over and have their way with them at will.

 

BSF is a lot like what is being pushed on NZ even though the NZ version is cheaper and more incidious. From what I understand though BSF was not simply a base level but rather a one size fits all level with no room to move up or down if it was outside the viewpoint of the almighty dropkicks who's idea it was in the first place.

 

If the teacher has a good reason and plan as to how to use some technology and - this is the important bit - it is cost effective then I'm sure that most will work to integrate it. If it requires the investment of the same amount again for a TS backend and a vast amount of time to integrate it or *smirk* get training on it before having training demanded from them stuff like this becomes less cost effective. Like the bit of software that teacher x buys at some conference because it is the best education thing ever that would require buying a whole new machine or reimplementing a whole setup these additional costs need to be considered because as far as I know schools have yet to be given an unlimited budget in the real world.

 

The issue at hand comes where there is not plan, when even if used to its full extent it is still not cost effective and this is the source of my objections to the iPad along with my inherent mistrust of Apple of course but if there was a good reason then sure.

 

If the iPad was 1/4th the cost, the cost it should be for a companion device and was better managable I think that it could be a valid solution but here at least as a value proposition it is horrible. In a business this would not make it past an initial cost benifit analasys if it was not a pretty trend.

 

With your example of dropping all tech from schools I think they could be right, in many places it has absoloutly nothing to do with the needs of the schools anymore and is just the combined result of marketing interests and educational marketing interests (studies) and how ever much of each stick.

 

The actual role of education could almost certainly be performed better with less tech, less reliance on youtube and more actual teaching but again that is another discussion and I am dragging the thread off topic again which seems to be a habit lately.

[GrumbleDook]

nope ... not dragging the thread off-topic at all ... the original article included a parent was aghast that a school would waste money on iPads ... but you could have substituted any device in there TBH. The only reason the iPad is a relevant target at the moment is the "shiny" factor, that some people have (possibly justifiable) grievance with Apple, that tablets are yet to have some really good examples about how they can be managed by the school and there are limited case studies tying in the educational aspect of using iPads to the technical issues surrounding them. You could stick and android tablet in there if you wanted and have had the same discussion ... except that it would then get into OS wars about how terrible Apple rather than considering what management tools there are out there for any solution, how they work and whether they are worth it? It is not just with Apple we get this ... it happens with MS stuff, with RM, with RBC connections ...

 

My current views and moods are also tainted by the resistance to change some people have which is just as bad as the problems prior to BSF ... and will lead to schools cutting corners to save money instead of planning things properly. Open Source Schools have a fantastic event on today in London, which I could not go to as the travel costs and the entrance fee could not be justified at this time by me to the LA. But I know a lot of what will be said at the event already, and it is all very laudable, but for every switched on member of SLT who attends there are many others who don't and will make use of open source to cut corners without planning. This is as bad as implementing tablets without planning. As for cost effective ... how do people measure this? Do they look to see if software is used and how frequently? At whether staff using particular software get better results that others using different software. Do people look at what comes out from exam boards to see if the choice of software needs to change? You can't look at everything and there are times you have to trust your teachers and SLT.

 

back to the original topic though ... the introduction of a different device is bound to change the way people work ... and just because someone has always done things in a particular way that should not be reason to look at whether it is worth changing. Remember that whatever lessons are learnt from the iPad will translate to other tablets.