[news] Conservative think suggests teachers pay doubles

[somabc]

A council could decide to attract

parents who care about education by

spending its money on schools. It may well

be the case that doubling teachers’ pay and

cutting class sizes substantially would

transform schools and attract new people.

 

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/413.pdf

 

In a rather interesting publication from a Conservative Think Tank published today they suggest that councils have more authority over how they spend their money including the above possibility?

 

It also reports that Northerners should all move South as their cities have 'failed' which is a whole other story.

 

Thinktank says northerners should head south | Reuters.com

[Ric_]

So the suggestion is... "pay teachers twice as much and hire twice as many of them"? I can see this being economically viable

[tmcd35]

So the suggestion is... "pay teachers twice as much and hire twice as many of them"? I can see this being economically viable

 

I can see it working, all they need to do is cut non essential expenditure to pay for the teachers. I mean whats the big idea of all these computers and laptops in schools? In my day maths was taught with a pen a bit of paper, surely cheaper than 30 laptops, wifi, etc.

 

It'll mean we'll have leave, join the dole queue

[somabc]

So the suggestion is... "pay teachers twice as much and hire twice as many of them"? I can see this being economically viable

 

Actually re-reading that perhaps they meant doubling government expenditure on teachers pay i.e. hiring twice as many teachers but on the same pay?

[somabc]

I can see it working, all they need to do is cut non essential expenditure to pay for the teachers. I mean whats the big idea of all these computers and laptops in schools? In my day maths was taught with a pen a bit of paper, surely cheaper than 30 laptops, wifi, etc.

 

It'll mean we'll have leave, join the dole queue

 

Nah we can be all one of the 100,000's of new teachers! In fact the only people working in the country will be those who are either at school / college / uni studying and those teaching them!

Edited August 13, 2008 by somabc

[Andrew_C]

It'll mean we'll have leave, join the dole queue

Yerrighhht... I'll believe it when I see it. Tories delight in cutting expenditure on local services to pay for backh... sorry, arms deals and the like. I'll not be holding my breath!

[dhicks]

It also reports that Northerners should all move South as their cities have 'failed' which is a whole other story.

 

Hearing about this on the radio this morning, I got the impression they were going for a make-people-take-notice approach rather than anything they realistically thought would actually get implemented. Hence, I felt, why they particularly mentioned Oxford and Cambridge - both lovely towns, with a high percentage of people associated with them who would protest at the idea of tens of thousands of Liverpudlians being dumped on top of them. Therefore, you get more effort put into people trying to figure out how we can actually regenerate the north.

 

My bet would be on improved transport links - but properly improved, not just "improved transport links" like we have at the moment. I mean a proper TGV-style train line or bullet-train style link direct from London (or Cambridge) to Liverpool - make it so you can realistically commute from Liverpool to London of a morning.

 

Aside: the spell checker in Firefox actually knows how to spell "Liverpudlians". But why?

 

--

David Hicks

[beeswax]

Actually re-reading that perhaps they meant doubling government expenditure on teachers pay i.e. hiring twice as many teachers but on the same pay?

 

I think they actually tried something a little like this in Ohio. They made sure that primary class sizes were no bigger than twice the child's age, i.e. a class of 5 year olds would have no more than 10 pupils, and plenty of one to one time with the teachers. At age 7 they would be in classes of no more than 14. What it did, if I recall correctly, was ensure that pupils could read, write and do maths, felt confident and behaved better, with all the subsequent knock-on effects (less time lost through unruly behaviour etc) further down the line in secondary school.

 

As for all the poor people moving south, I think that's a great idea, with house prices falling now is a good time for the work shy northerners to go and populate all the remaining green belt land down there.

[Geoff]

Aside: the spell checker in Firefox actually knows how to spell "Liverpudlians". But why?

 

The creator of the enGB dictonary for Firefox is from Liverpool.

[Andrew_C]

- make it so you can realistically commute from Liverpool to London of a morning.

Why in the name of FSM would you want to do that? Much cheaper and better for the economy of the north to move a few big employers back up t' north. That way the cities up there regenerate, the people are happier, what is left of the countryside down here stays green, and the roads get quieter.

 

They made sure that primary class sizes were no bigger than twice the child's age,

I like that; it makes total sense. I wonder if Ed BallzUp would go for it?

[Geoff]

I wonder if Ed BallzUp would go for it?

 

I don't think he can count that far up.

[tmcd35]

Why in the name of FSM would you want to do that? Much cheaper and better for the economy of the north to move a few big employers back up t' north. That way the cities up there regenerate, the people are happier, what is left of the countryside down here stays green, and the roads get quieter.

 

Super Large Corporation PLC moves their factory from Kent to Merseyside. Great for employment in Merseyside, bad for employment in Kent. Also Super Large Corporation PLC's customers are in the south, maybe even on the continent. Those quiet roads are now full of lorries transporting Super Large Corporations PLCs Totally Pointless White Goods Product, from the north back to the south. I guess that'll help out with the inflation problem?

 

Although that said, I suppose Call Centers and Software houses could move north without ill effect. Infact it's a good idea, unemployment in India will be up and so would immigration to this country from said India!

[Geoff]

Last time I checked, Liverpool had a sizeable freight port.

[torledo]

I can't get behind something that recommends giving more money and autonomy to those loons in council hall.

 

We all know LA's have their own agenda and local politics that often dictate how money is allocated - not always for the benefit of the educations system locally - it's a tory pet project to want to sort of devolve power away from the centre and into local authorities which in many cases is a bad idea imo.

 

As for the north vs south thing, i don't think the Policy exchange was advocating everybody from the north converging on berkshire and the home counties....

 

it seems to dislike the regeneration plans for many northern cities as a gigantic waste of money. It seems to suggest places like liverpool and sunderand are feeder towns in the shadow of bigger, more affluent neighbours [e.g manchester, newcastle] and would struggle to sustain themselves as prosperous cities. I have no idea if they have a point...i always thought of liverpool as being this quite hip, up and coming place. But then again it wouldn't surprise me if most of the major employers and employment were in manchester rather than liverpool - in which case people move to wear the jobs are. Manchester being more strategically important on the road and rail network.

 

We know much employment and ecommerce is focused in london and the M25 commuter belt with places like reading important as a result.

 

Cambridge and oxford is mentioned because they being important for other reasons, with both being both these centres of educational excellence and within commute of greater london - they could well explode in size. I would certainly focus on house building where there was likely to be a build of people needing homes. So it makes sense if you are going to prioritize to focus resources on those areas rather than places up north where the projects won't make much difference to the success of the region. Not barmy at all.

[dhicks]

Why in the name of FSM would you want to do that?

 

Because the attention of the country tends to be focused on London and the South.

 

Much cheaper and better for the economy of the north to move a few big employers back up t' north.

 

Yes, absolutely. But the idea this think-tank seem to be trying to get across is that it doesn't seem to have worked for some reason. There's probably a less radical solution than transplanting the population of Liverpool into Cambridge, mind.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

The creator of the enGB dictonary for Firefox is from Liverpool.

 

That's what I love about this forum - ask a question, get an answer :-)

 

An aside to my original aside: "Firefox" does not seem to be in Firefox's spelling dictionary...

 

--

David Hicks

[torledo]

Although that said, I suppose Call Centers and Software houses could move north without ill effect. Infact it's a good idea, unemployment in India will be up and so would immigration to this country from said India!

 

That's already happening and is a very good idea....one of the major mobile operators' call centre operation has a significant presence in, of all places, stoke-on-trent....not a particularly affluent city and while perhaps not technically 'up north' it does fit the description of many a northern town.

 

You can pay most of the front line staff just above national minimum wage, plus low cost of rents for business premises and office blocks make many of these towns perfect places for the location of a call centre site. Location beyond those factors is irrelevant becuase all call centres sites these days are part of a larger 'virtual call center' anyway. Sophisticated contact center software and hardware taking care of the routing of cusomter calls to appropriate agents - whether those agents be in stoke or bangalore.

[Geoff]

An aside to my original aside: "Firefox" does not seem to be in Firefox's spelling dictionary...

 

send an email to [email protected] about that.

[torledo]

dhicks makes a good point about high speed rail links, but my understanding is that at the moment those hs links are focused on routes into and out of london to the south-east....not sure when, if ever, a high speed link would get to a northern town. It would take years and cost bilions no doubt.

 

As I said, i don't think the PE is suggesting people from up north give up hope and descend on cambridge, but i think it does have a point about where you allocate limited funds for regeneration - with the current state of the house market and with the public purse stretched as it is with limited funding available for new projects, it surely makes more sense to concentrate house building and regeneration in a few key areas rather than spread thiny all over the country where the impact would be negligible as a result. Just a thought, i don't like the idea of abandoning norther cities....but the govt. and big business have already done that - what hope is there of big business returning ? or indeed of them returning to the uk as a whole.

[broc]

We already have plenty of call-centres in the North, thank you. They pay minimum wages now, and some (non-unionised, naturally) have been known to employ bullying tactics to pressure call centre staff to 'win' new business, things like making all staff stand to take calls and only allow them to sit down when they have 'won' a new customer...... even people with physical disabilities/accident injuries were made to stand.

 

The problem with investing in the North (or anywhere away from London & the South East) is that it encourages companies to open up new businesses while they are receiving grants, then they close them down as soon as the grant funding runs out. Many so-called global' employers move work from region to region, country to country, following regional, national & EU grant funding, leaving a trail of despair behind them.

 

What the regions need is sustainable investment & proper jobs that add true value, not fly-by-night call centres funded by quangos with too much time on their hands.

[somabc]

dhicks makes a good point about high speed rail links, but my understanding is that at the moment those hs links are focused on routes into and out of london to the south-east....not sure when, if ever, a high speed link would get to a northern town. It would take years and cost bilions no doubt.

 

The South East (ie Kent) will get high speed trains in December 2009 and it can't come soon enough.

 

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/content/doc/cms/Connectivity%20map%202.pdf

 

I have tried taking the train from London to Ashford and it can take it up to 2 hours to travel 60 miles (average speed 30mph). Driving, even on highly congested roads only takes about an hour.

 

I am working about 2 days a week in Kent but next year I'm due to stop, just as the high speed trains come in

 

There is talk of creating high speed lines to Edinburgh and Glasgow, no doubt going through Birmingham, Manchester etc just cementing their lead over other Northern cities.

[torledo]

We already have plenty of call-centres in the North, thank you. They pay minimum wages now, and some (non-unionised, naturally) have been known to employ bullying tactics to pressure call centre staff to 'win' new business, things like making all staff stand to take calls and only allow them to sit down when they have 'won' a new customer...... even people with physical disabilities/accident injuries were made to stand.

 

The problem with investing in the North (or anywhere away from London & the South East) is that it encourages companies to open up new businesses while they are receiving grants, then they close them down as soon as the grant funding runs out. Many so-called global' employers move work from region to region, country to country, following regional, national & EU grant funding, leaving a trail of despair behind them.

 

What the regions need is sustainable investment & proper jobs that add true value, not fly-by-night call centres funded by quangos with too much time on their hands.

 

But then how do you create proper jobs without providing grants and subsidies to employers who are looking for sites to relocate to....

 

it appears most of the jobs created under nu labour in the last 10 years has been as a result of the expansion of the public sector workforce....plenty of councils and public bodies are themselves not creating proper jobs...non-jobs or jobs in these actual quangos, and if anything councils are acting more like global corporations by outsourcing many services - like call centres - to private companies (so while existing staff can remain on the LA t's and c's, going forward new staff are employed by the private org with all the risk that entails).

 

They are now doing what many a ftse 100 company does and are actively implementing multi million pound IT projects in order to actually reduce costs and maintinan council tax increases below inflation by actually reducing the size of the workforce. In many cases contractors not from the local area are coming into to take advantage of this windfall, and then move on once they've botched [ sorry, completed ] the project.

 

So what kind of sustainable employment are you thinking of ? There won't be a lot of that about outside of the south-east anywhere in the uk. i don't see those jobs being in IT (offshored) or manufacturing....that just leaves the service industry that our economy seems to be built on.

[dhicks]

my understanding is that at the moment those hs links are focused on routes into and out of London to the south-east....not sure when, if ever, a high speed link would get to a northern town. It would take years and cost billions no doubt.

 

Which about sums up the problems we're having - the country that brought the railway to the world now can't sort out a decent line between a couple of its major cities.

 

I don't think the PE is suggesting people from up north give up hope and descend on Cambridge

 

We'd better get the defences ready again, just in case :-)

 

--

David Hicks

[somabc]

Which about sums up the problems we're having - the country that brought the railway to the world now can't sort out a decent line between a couple of its major cities.

 

Look at Crossrail, this is really only a commuter / short urban railway equivalent in size and capacity to about one of the five RER lines built in Paris in the 60s/70s and it will cost about £16 billion and take 20 odd years!

 

Welcome to Crossrail

Edited August 13, 2008 by somabc

[torledo]

Look at Crossrail, this is really only a commuter / short urban railway equivalent in size and capacity to about one of the five RER lines built in Paris in the 60s/70s and it will cost about £16 billion and take 20 odd years!

 

Welcome to Crossrail

 

that quoted 30 billion pounds of benefit to the economy has obviously been plucked out of the backsides of a group of consultants who've no doubt been paid millions to do 'feasibility studies' and the like in order for politicians to go "look there you go 30 billion, a consutant say so - so it must be right...let's rubber stamp that and expect it to go overbudget and be delivered late. job done"

 

What is it about the waste of money in these orgs....EU, regional development organisations, and the railways with the various professional consultants and quangos. All these people need is some fictitious figure of cost savings or economic benefits and they get the green light to spend billions of public money on projects that take years to complete - best value being secondary to pie in the sky 'economic benefits'. the policy exchange have already turned their ire on the RDA's telling us what we've known all along - that they are a very expensive waste of space.

 

No doubt this current report follows northern cities is linked to the previous report on the RDA's which advocated the number of those being reduced.