Mark182 Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Just a quick question, we are a secondary school and just wondering what permissions your data manager has? Ours currently has the following :- Access to nova t (I know they are back up for timetabling) Administration assistant Assessment Co-ordinator Class teacher Curricular manager Profiles co-ordinator Profiles operator School administrator timetabler - Thanks
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Surely it should be everything? System Manager and all. (Worth noting they shouldn't have domain admin rights on the network)
Mark182 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Posted January 10, 2019 Surely it should be everything? System Manager and all. (Worth noting they shouldn't have domain admin rights on the network) They don't have domain admin rights. I can't go into much detail as to why they don't have system manager rights, do they 100% need this?
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I don't get it then, if you don't trust them to have full access to the data, why are they doing the job of managing your data
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 ...ok, been there. Name of the game is damage limitation. I assume you have backups that you've tested?
Mark182 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Posted January 10, 2019 ...ok, been there. Name of the game is damage limitation. I assume you have backups that you've tested? Yeah, I'm not sure they have done anything wrong as such just think the school manager is having a clamp down and sims rights and does the data manager need god rights in sims EG being able to see salaries ect.
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 First question is does that information need to be in SIMS? Surely its just HR. Salaries is weird in public sector, it's public knowledge what scale someone is on - so its between x and y. Obs people do get concerned about those points between x and y, but it's not as bad as the private sector where its more like a-ZZZ. 2
elsiegee40 Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Yeah, I'm not sure they have done anything wrong as such just think the school manager is having a clamp down and sims rights and does the data manager need god rights in sims EG being able to see salaries ect. It sounds like a GDPR training course has been attended. As Matt40k says, the first thing is to look at what is stored and do you even need it? If SIMS is used for HR and your Data Manager only does student data then there’s definitely an argument for restricting them from God rights. If your HR details don’t need to be on SIMS because they’re held elsewhere then remove them. 1
djrscally Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Does SIMS not to SWF Census? If so the salaries will need to be in there. I'm the data manager and have access to all the things. But I obviously provide stats and so on for HR in the same way as for the teachers and SLT. 1
bobsmith Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Just a quick question, we are a secondary school and just wondering what permissions your data manager has? Ours currently has the following :- Access to nova t (I know they are back up for timetabling) Administration assistant Assessment Co-ordinator Class teacher Curricular manager Profiles co-ordinator Profiles operator School administrator timetabler - Thanks Getting away from the internal politics for just a moment, you've got redundant groups in those permissions. School Administrator trumps admin assistant. Profiles co-ordinator trumps Profiles operator If they are actually your data manager and are responsible for the use of SIMS within the school then they need to access ALL of the data stored within SIMS surely. It's like asking that a network manager doesn't have domain admin rights - if you don't trust them then you have to sack them. 1
CAM Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Student data is fine. Access to Personnel is something else, unless you have a regular role like producing absence reports then you don't need it. I've never been granted full Personnel access, but it does mean you can send enquiries about HR to HR! Even the Workforce Census I sat with HR to guide them through it instead of on my own like the academic returns. 1
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I'm pretty sure I remember payroll having to upload the data for SWC as the schools didn't have it in SIMS. Not sure if this is still the case?
bobsmith Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Depends on the school - we pay our LA to do our HR so they collaborate on the COLLECT website with us, but some schools will be doing it in house - particularly academies. Depending on the school the data manager may need to have access to system manager so they can sort issues out, what this means in practice is that they can grant themselves access to whatever they want anyway. So it becomes a bit of a moot issue whether or not they are granted personnel access explicitly. 1
matt40k Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Actually wouldn't it make sense if you run the SWC from the HR system?? Just looked on Access (formally HCSS) and they list it... https://www.theaccessgroup.com/education/people/centralised-employee-database/ I guess some bits you'd always need to pull from SIMS... but... round pegs, square holes? One ring to rule them all?
djrscally Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Actually wouldn't it make sense if you run the SWC from the HR system?? Just looked on Access (formally HCSS) and they list it... https://www.theaccessgroup.com/education/people/centralised-employee-database/ I guess some bits you'd always need to pull from SIMS... but... round pegs, square holes? One ring to rule them all? For us at least the MIS serves as the HR system. We don't really have a separate one (except for some absence analysis stuffs) 1
Ditto Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) For us at least the MIS serves as the HR system. We don't really have a separate one (except for some absence analysis stuffs) It was the same for my old school on progresso. What was a little challenging was the fact we had a primary head and a senior head. Each should have access to their subordinates, but progresso didn't support that (same with behaviour records). I created a separate HR role to access the contract/salaries tab. I didn't have access to it unless I switched to the role (which is tracked in the audit log). So if they needed details, they'd need to speak to HR. What was a real nuisance is this setting didn't filter through automatically to reports, so I had to ensure that only appropriate ones were not available. Never checked OSR - don;t think it support access to staff data. On access in general, in bigger schools with a team of staff covering the areas discussed, I could see justification for less broad access for some. For me I had pretty much everything as I did almost everything outside of governance, finance and HR! Trust was key and it always will be. I would add though that strong auditing was important. GSuite logged almost everything. Progresso wasn't too bad - just a few omissions. Edited January 10, 2019 by Ditto 1
Mark182 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Posted January 11, 2019 For us at least the MIS serves as the HR system. We don't really have a separate one (except for some absence analysis stuffs) Same here.
matt40k Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 I would add though that strong auditing was important. GSuite logged almost everything. Progresso wasn't too bad - just a few omissions. I think that's more my point, SIMS doesn't have auditing. SIMS doesn't do payroll (as far as I am aware), so the data must be held elsewhere.
Mark182 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Posted January 11, 2019 I managed to get my hands on SIMSPERMISSIONSLatest_7184_MA.xls. Not sure if anyone else will find it useful.
Ditto Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 I think that's more my point, SIMS doesn't have auditing. SIMS doesn't do payroll (as far as I am aware), so the data must be held elsewhere. Wow! I've not used SIMS to date, but no auditing - that's a real shocker!
bobsmith Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Wow! I've not used SIMS to date, but no auditing - that's a real shocker! it's got a tiny bit of auditing, it's a value that is definitely greater than zero..... I can see who changed an attendance mark and when they did it...... I can also see when you last logged into it and from what pc. On the original topic - SIMS can record the employee payscales - spinal points and banking details. Isn't it just FMS you need to round off the payroll aspect?
matt40k Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Yer, no auditing then. Pretty sure the health auditing requires you to know who, when (and ideally why) someone has even looked at you're record. Payroll you'd at least want to know who's changed your bank details. FMS doesn't actually put money into peoples banks and do stuff like you know, pay the tax man. You'd have staff pay commitment so you have it on you're books but everything else involves bolts on \ third parties. I'd personally seriously question what personnel data you'd store in SIMS, given the lack of auditing, I've also heard you can't actually delete lot of staff stuff - you can just about hide it - again would recommend checking it out. Totally for 1 system with all the data, just not at the cost of future problems.
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