+ Post New Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 41 of 41
Wireless Networks Thread, anyone thinking of ditching the LA for internet in Technical; Originally Posted by nephilim Tom, have smoothwall thought about being an ISP themselves so they can tie in all equipment ...
  1. #31


    tom_newton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    4,461
    Thank Post
    866
    Thanked 845 Times in 667 Posts
    Rep Power
    195
    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Tom, have smoothwall thought about being an ISP themselves so they can tie in all equipment together???
    It would be cool, but we'd be back to a more "one size fits all" solution - and tbh there are 100s of specialised ISPs that could hand us our ass in a basket when it comes to providing connectivity, we'd just end up reselling their service at a less attractive cost. Stick to filtering thinks I.

  2. #32

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    518
    Thank Post
    26
    Thanked 72 Times in 63 Posts
    Rep Power
    28
    From dealing with managed providers here and business providers I would choose the business ones instantly as they do what you ask them to rather than argue that they know best about how to run your schools network.
    Is also my experience with the LEA here in kent, although i'm sure many will disagree. Connection and filtering is good and support is also good but are completely unwilling to move and have been very underhand and childish with how they are handling the current price hikes. I.e. no direct communication with network managers about pricing and policy, giving schools less than the required notice period to cancel there connection before releasing prices which locks them in for another year at the least.
    Fortunately i saw this coming and shopped about so will be moving away from the LEA in the next couple of months where hopefully we will be getting better speeds for less money and will have the flexibility to do as we wish with the connectivity. The idea being now we will be paying thousands to feel like a customer rather than just a user on the LEA network which is how we feel treated now.

    We are fortunate enough though to be in a reasonably urban area with the choice of both virgin and BT leased lines so appreciate the problems that more rural schools face.

  3. #33

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    853
    Thank Post
    111
    Thanked 112 Times in 108 Posts
    Rep Power
    45

    ---

    <rant>

    With my tax-payers hat on and very little inbuilt socialist, the simplistic manner in which this topic keeps getting raised is irksome. In a perfect world the Gov[tm] would ensure all schools get connectivity (+preferably flexible web-filtering) same way they get electricity i.e. at pretty much the same unit price everywhere. In the imperfect real world I have no problem whatsoever with some schools effectively subsidising connections for others that would never be able to afford the real cost for a 1/2 decent rural connection. If enough Secondary, up-their-backsides Academies et al abandon their LA/RBCs/Whatever then I guess we'll see some smaller schools (Primaries etc. which might be feeders for a Secondary that went their own independent way) drop off the net, at least for usable teaching/learning purposes.

    Don't know what it's like anywhere else, but I guess the main difficulty is that some LAs/RBCs/Whatever might be genuinely terrible, nothing at all like that 100% perfect service you provide your users, or have several features you might not want at all bundled into an all-or-nothing deal? So what's wrong with sorting that out collectively instead of this fragmented every-school-for-themselves idiocy?

    Basically if this kind of issue does apply to your corner of the world (seems to me it could apply to lots) and no one is thinking about this specific aspect very hard, then you are not providing the 'value' I expect for my meagre share of the money paid for a public service.


    PS:



    Is Edugeek pretty much resigned to endorsing and being an explicit marketing tool for such companies (who will happily help bring about the above scenarios) then?

    </rant>
    I found I could get 100MB with backup adsl, 2u server space in datacentre and penalty charges if internet down for 2k a year cheaper than the councils 30MB, no backup adsl, no datacentre space and no charges for internet down

    Would you pay 100 a colour cartridge over a 60 one? its what is best, if the council came out even just slightly more expensive with the same stuff added on I wouldnt have stayed without a thought but thats 10kover5 years saved and alot extra

  4. #34

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    9,922
    Thank Post
    1,332
    Thanked 1,774 Times in 1,101 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    593
    Quote Originally Posted by Edu-IT View Post
    and I just hope that in the years to come when people wonder why we have schools struggling for money and having to make a choice between including filtering with their connection or not, when they are on a bare-bones connection with poor speeds (in comparison with same size schools 5 miles away) and it is affecting what the school can do ...
    I don't understand this point. Can you explain what you mean?
    Schools are going to struggle for cash. Even if you look at the presently possible commercial provision in some areas of the country you can find one school in an urban-ish areas getting a decent price for a connection from an education friendly ISP, who can also chuck in half-decent filtering and other services too. However, a few miles down the road, possible separated from the nearest decent exchange by a major motorway, cannot get a decent line in from the same education friendly ISP as it would be too costly and they make no money from it ... so the school has to go with the cheapest option, which runs at a slower speed, has less services as part of it, takes more management and might not even have any filtering included ... and this could be a school that isn't exactly small but is not big enough to employ IT support frequently enough to run their own filtering (they might not even have the hardware to run something on)

    So you get 2 schools ... in the same area ... with vastly different connectivity and services.

    Purely hypothetical of course ...

  5. #35

    Edu-IT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    7,088
    Thank Post
    402
    Thanked 618 Times in 565 Posts
    Rep Power
    180
    Makes sense now!

    It's a difficult situation to be in and as localzuk says and I somewhat agree with, we all have to look out for our own schools and do what is best for them but at the same time I don't think we can completely ignore our feeder schools too as that is where our kids will be coming from.

  6. #36

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    9,922
    Thank Post
    1,332
    Thanked 1,774 Times in 1,101 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    593
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The problem is, as an individual school - it is not our responsibility to provide services to other schools. It is not our place to worry about the funding of other schools. If we did that, we'd never get anything done, as we'd spend half our budget subsidising other schools. At a school level, it is our responsibility to get best value for our pupils, for our community.

    What happens when you realise that many of these primaries that are miles out in the middle of nowhere actually only have 12 pupils, yet get 5 times the funding per pupil as your school. Is that fair?

    Collective thinking is only as good as the lowest common denominator - why should those who can get good deals be forced to lower the quality of their service?

    However, schools thinking independently doesn't mean they won't help other schools. In our town, for example, I don't see why our school couldn't have leased lines installed to the first schools with us becoming their ISP. It all depends how our LEA goes though, and how many wish to become academies.
    Because all the funding now goes to schools and is the responsibility of each school then it is almost a moot point ...

    You will find that in a number of places it used to be that a main line was run into a large school and then links to others schools put in ... which was fine as long as no work had to be done out of hours ... and schools, for some reason, don't like to have things taken down during school hours. That is why so many RBC / MANs now operate core equipment in exchanges ... the main bone of contention is do people really want to run WANs / Regional grids now? It is not just the cost of running the lines connecting the grid together, but the support costs of it too.

    If you think it is unfair for an LA supported school with few pupils to get a lot of money ... all pupils are entitled to the same level of education, and sometimes that means it will cost more in some areas, the same way it costs more to run some NHS services in some areas ...

    Collective thinking should not mean the lowest common denominator either. It should cater for the need for all, where possible ... but sometimes folk have to be willing to compromise. With sufficient money all things are possible ... just as with sufficient thrust pigs will fly, but it might not be a good idea to be underneath as they go overhead, or be near them when they land.

    If best value for your school saves you 10k ... but it results in another school having to pay out 12k more than if it was a collective process ... is that best value on the part of the Govt? If it then also reduces their options for provision of tools for learning (more complex or restrictive filtering, or less flexibility in managing it) then is that also a good thing? I'm not saying that the RBC is the only way, or even the best way ... just that some of the drive to make each school go their own way (which is the way NAHT and ASCL see it too) is going to cause problems further down the road.

  7. #37

    Edu-IT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    7,088
    Thank Post
    402
    Thanked 618 Times in 565 Posts
    Rep Power
    180
    If best value for your school saves you 10k ... but it results in another school having to pay out 12k more than if it was a collective process ... is that best value on the part of the Govt? If it then also reduces their options for provision of tools for learning (more complex or restrictive filtering, or less flexibility in managing it) then is that also a good thing? I'm not saying that the RBC is the only way, or even the best way ... just that some of the drive to make each school go their own way (which is the way NAHT and ASCL see it too) is going to cause problems further down the road.
    But on the flip side what if the school has no other choice but to go it alone because they cannot afford the collective price given by the RBC? The other school may still end up paying out more and may have their options reduced but really there's nothing that can be done. The school only has so much money and if they cannot afford the collective price then they have to do their own thing. Schools set their own budgets so only the school knows what they have to spend on this, that and the other. There's nothing to say that RBC's will be able to secure fantastic pricing which everyone can afford.

  8. #38

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    853
    Thank Post
    111
    Thanked 112 Times in 108 Posts
    Rep Power
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Because all the funding now goes to schools and is the responsibility of each school then it is almost a moot point ...

    You will find that in a number of places it used to be that a main line was run into a large school and then links to others schools put in ... which was fine as long as no work had to be done out of hours ... and schools, for some reason, don't like to have things taken down during school hours. That is why so many RBC / MANs now operate core equipment in exchanges ... the main bone of contention is do people really want to run WANs / Regional grids now? It is not just the cost of running the lines connecting the grid together, but the support costs of it too.

    If you think it is unfair for an LA supported school with few pupils to get a lot of money ... all pupils are entitled to the same level of education, and sometimes that means it will cost more in some areas, the same way it costs more to run some NHS services in some areas ...

    Collective thinking should not mean the lowest common denominator either. It should cater for the need for all, where possible ... but sometimes folk have to be willing to compromise. With sufficient money all things are possible ... just as with sufficient thrust pigs will fly, but it might not be a good idea to be underneath as they go overhead, or be near them when they land.

    If best value for your school saves you 10k ... but it results in another school having to pay out 12k more than if it was a collective process ... is that best value on the part of the Govt? If it then also reduces their options for provision of tools for learning (more complex or restrictive filtering, or less flexibility in managing it) then is that also a good thing? I'm not saying that the RBC is the only way, or even the best way ... just that some of the drive to make each school go their own way (which is the way NAHT and ASCL see it too) is going to cause problems further down the road.
    But this is the governments problem and they should have thought this through I might as well walk to the next school and give them 2k a year from our budget! the government should give certain quantities of money to schools depending of situations. In thereoy I could give radio connections from my school to other primaries

  9. #39

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    17,529
    Thank Post
    513
    Thanked 2,406 Times in 1,862 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    822
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Because all the funding now goes to schools and is the responsibility of each school then it is almost a moot point ...

    You will find that in a number of places it used to be that a main line was run into a large school and then links to others schools put in ... which was fine as long as no work had to be done out of hours ... and schools, for some reason, don't like to have things taken down during school hours. That is why so many RBC / MANs now operate core equipment in exchanges ... the main bone of contention is do people really want to run WANs / Regional grids now? It is not just the cost of running the lines connecting the grid together, but the support costs of it too.
    Indeed, our connection is currently done via that model, but the LEA is currently rewiring to move to an exchange direct connection for every school instead. IMO, internet technology is moving faster than our LEAs and RBCs are capable of keeping up with. It is easier for a school to invest in their own connection, bringing it up to modern standards, than it is for an LEA or entire RBC to upgrade an entire WAN.

    If you think it is unfair for an LA supported school with few pupils to get a lot of money ... all pupils are entitled to the same level of education, and sometimes that means it will cost more in some areas, the same way it costs more to run some NHS services in some areas ...
    I do think it is unfair, but as you say, every child is entitled to the same level of education. But this is what buses were invented for. I used to travel for nearly an hour to get to school, and you can guarantee that that bus service cost a lot less than maintaining a tiny school.

    Collective thinking should not mean the lowest common denominator either. It should cater for the need for all, where possible ... but sometimes folk have to be willing to compromise. With sufficient money all things are possible ... just as with sufficient thrust pigs will fly, but it might not be a good idea to be underneath as they go overhead, or be near them when they land.
    It shouldn't mean the lowest common denominator, but as you can see from people's posts on these forums - it regularly does mean that.

    If best value for your school saves you 10k ... but it results in another school having to pay out 12k more than if it was a collective process ... is that best value on the part of the Govt? If it then also reduces their options for provision of tools for learning (more complex or restrictive filtering, or less flexibility in managing it) then is that also a good thing? I'm not saying that the RBC is the only way, or even the best way ... just that some of the drive to make each school go their own way (which is the way NAHT and ASCL see it too) is going to cause problems further down the road.
    What if that 10k saving also comes with increased options for that school? It isn't always about money - as you can see from some on here who actually chose to pay more than their LEA/RBC charged and go it alone, due to the advantages. Those decisions should be up to the schools, and shouldn't be up to the LEA/RBC.

  10. Thanks to localzuk from:

    Edu-IT (14th March 2011)

  11. #40

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lancaster
    Posts
    11
    Thank Post
    3
    Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts
    Rep Power
    15
    Don't want to get on the wrong side of the forum rules here, but couldn't pass by this thread without saying thanks for the kind words from you guys about LUNS on this thread - you've made our day

    See you at the edugeek conference ;-)

    Dan Poltawski
    LUNS

  12. #41

    Edu-IT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    7,088
    Thank Post
    402
    Thanked 618 Times in 565 Posts
    Rep Power
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    We shall hopefully have a company who is very, very good at school internet connectivity talking about this very subject at our conf in June. I won't name names yet until they're in the bag though
    Looks like LUNS have let the cat out of the bag! ;-)

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. What Were They Thinking?
    By AngryITGuy in forum General Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 24th April 2009, 10:57 AM
  2. Thinking about getting Macs...
    By Crispin in forum Mac
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 31st March 2009, 11:26 AM
  3. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12th February 2008, 09:44 PM
  4. Thinking About Getting Sky+?
    By in forum General Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 27th November 2005, 11:48 AM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •