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Wireless Networks Thread, Half of class can't connect to wireless in Technical; Originally Posted by davis1021 think its gonna have to be a managed network, there's not enough network points in the ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis1021 View Post
    think its gonna have to be a managed network, there's not enough network points in the rooms to go down the multiple AP's per room route
    Post up your location, there might well be a school near you who has a setup you can have a look at.

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    BatchFile's Avatar
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    if it's just one room, IIRC you can run a single ruckus AP standalone without the management stuff for a few hundred quid (250-400 range)

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    its about 12 rooms on 2 floors, 6 down 6 up in a long row. any guestimates on approx price?

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    BatchFile's Avatar
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    2-3k or so? you'll (depending on your building's construction) probably need 1 AP in the second and fifth rooms on each floor, so there's always an AP either in the room, or next door. We got ours from CPLTD (Sponsors on here), who were great throughout.

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    just a quick update on this problem. had an engineer visit the site from a local network specialist and he did a site survey. he found that the site itself is fine (building material and such) and that the wireless range and speeds were fine.

    conclusion was he didn't have a proper answer and he is contacting 3com to see what they say.

    I am still sceptical I have the AP's set up correctly, the engineer said i did but... the 6 AP's are set to access point mode and they are each running DHCP as I cant get the clients to pick up DHCP from the server through the AP. now I'm not sure whether this is right or would something like repeater mode or multi-point mode be better?

    Driving me mad!!!

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    So you have loads of DHCP servers? Could they be dishing out the same IP more than once? I would say that the AP's are just swamped, quite frankly unmanaged systems quickly become unmanagable with anything more than a few users.

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    thanks jamo.

    the engineer wasn't too sure a managed system would help? he spoke of a controller to go in the switch rack but thought the wireless shouldnt need it. you think i should try getting the dhcp to work using the server instead of each AP?

    think i might get another company to come in and have a look

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    The devices you've bought are consumer grade AP's, not really designed for the use you're putting them to.

    I'd be saying the same as others here - get a Managed system such as Ruckus. A 1006 controller, and 4 AP's would cover your site from the sounds of it. It'd come to about 2.5k for a good a/b/g/n solution (cheaper if you don't want n etc...).

    The simple case is in a cheap unmanaged system you'll end up with lots of wireless collisions when more than, say, 8 or so devices try to connect to a single AP. This means each device just ends up having to re-send their requests over and over, effectively blocking communications. Managed systems generally overcome this, via various means.

    Another way to look at it is this - if you have a single a/b/g AP, you effectively get 54Mbps speed shared between all the devices connected. So, if you have 10 devices you end up with 5.4Mbps each, minus overheads etc... Not much.

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    apeo's Avatar
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    If you dont have too many APs, personally i wouldnt think having a managed system would help with connectivity. Managed system would make things alot easier to configure but wouldnt necessarily improve connectivty. It took quite abit of configuring to get our managed system to work here and there was a period when our previous unmanaged system was better (taken quite abit of configuring over a long time to get some dead spots to work, and now it works most of the time with random errors).

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Apeo - you've not used Ruckus then

    Managed systems generally include extra things on top of the easy configuration - such as the complex antennae in Ruckus AP's, or the 'blanket' coverage used by Extricom, or IPSec VPNs built in to Aruba. There are many reasons a managed solution would help - all you have to do is test one out and you'll see a massive difference in terms of connectivity.

    It really does depend on the system though. Ruckus manages, from various people on here, to get around 90 laptops all streaming things from bbc iplayer through 1 AP. Try that on a normal unmanaged AP, and you'll see nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Apeo - you've not used Ruckus then

    Managed systems generally include extra things on top of the easy configuration - such as the complex antennae in Ruckus AP's, or the 'blanket' coverage used by Extricom, or IPSec VPNs built in to Aruba. There are many reasons a managed solution would help - all you have to do is test one out and you'll see a massive difference in terms of connectivity.

    It really does depend on the system though. Ruckus manages, from various people on here, to get around 90 laptops all streaming things from bbc iplayer through 1 AP. Try that on a normal unmanaged AP, and you'll see nothing.
    Ruckus gets alot of praise and quite rightly so when it works but we are one of those that have found it to be a real pain. Ruckus doesnt play well with other APs, I've actually be told by a few providers this is the case, so if you have a lot of home broadband in the area guess what... problems. A lot of the cool features had to be turned off and pretty much our entire network is manually configured.

    Looking at the problem davis1021 is having a managed system i guess would load balance and ruckus APs can potentailly handle quite a few connection before it becomes unstable. However are these APs installed in room or do they follow the laptops. If they follow the laptops then you could have 2 APs in the room on a different SSID and Channel (as suggested earlier). Then you can manually configure the laptop to connect to the one fo the SSID, manual load balancing if you will. This is the problem of having an unmanaged system, all these kind of things have to be done manually.

    EDIT: I forgot to add, as stated you shouldnt configure DHCP on the APs and the clients get it from the server.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K.C.Leblanc View Post

    1, 6 and 11 are the three non overlapping channels make sure your APs are set to one of these channels and that you assign the channels in such a way that APs using the same channel are out of range of each other.
    Great piece of advice, but remember, we're in the UK and we have access to 13 channels. So channels 1, 7 and 13 are also non-overlapping!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post

    Another way to look at it is this - if you have a single a/b/g AP, you effectively get 54Mbps speed shared between all the devices connected. So, if you have 10 devices you end up with 5.4Mbps each, minus overheads etc... Not much.
    Nearly. Yes the data rate is shared, but the data throughput is roughly half of the available data rate. So you might be lucky to get about 2 Mbps.

    Both Cisco and Trapeze recommend no more than 20 authenticated sessions/clients per ap, but each ap will support alot more unauthenticated sessions/clients.

    Getting back on topic...

    Are you using roaming profiles?
    What are the users authenticating against? AD? NDS? Local Account?
    Where is the authentication server? is it onsite or is it at a remote site?
    How many authentication servers are you using?
    Have you checked the logs on the servers & client laptops?
    Do your AP's have the ability to adjust the transmit power?
    When you got your survey done, did they check for interference?

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    Ruckus manages, from various people on here, to get around 90 laptops all streaming things from bbc iplayer through 1 AP
    I'm not convinced I could get 90 desktops streaming iPlayer without a multi-GB link as the worst bottleneck. Could some of those various people stand up and be counted i.e. tell us exactly what they managed with one (presumably multi-attenna-channel-probably-band GB) AP.

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    Well, we've had at least 50 laptops / netbooks on 1 AP and it didn't blink
    Also, since we got it settled and all the APs in their permenant positions, we've had this many pupils unable to log on due to wireless network issues: 0
    (before, with unmanaged APs it was about 10 per day)

    Can I sit down now? my back's starting to ache bending over to type

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