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Wireless Networks Thread, how to Stream world cup in HD from Freesat? in Technical; wow , is this really an education website with all these fail options, Iplayer is Unicast off site TCP/IP streaming, ...
  1. #16

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    VLC Multicast IS what you WANT, don't IPLAYER/Unicast and waste MASSIVE bandwidth.

    wow , is this really an education website with all these fail options, Iplayer is Unicast off site TCP/IP streaming, as in you need to use one outside TCP/IP connection Per EVERY SINGLE Person watching,100 people.

    that's 100 single Unicast connections taking masses of WAN and LAN bandwidth for a given average of 2Mbit/s to 3.5Mbit/s for the HD 720P and 1080P Iplayer stream assuming you can get a direct URL to the servers streaming cache.

    Clue: you can to some degree or not as the case may be... if you setup and use the discontinued http://linuxcentre.net/getiplayer but thats not what you want to do ,
    Multicast is Exactly what you want to use
    IF your switches are dumb, as in pass everything received on to all connected Ethernet devices ,as is VLC to server this content.

    multicast means take ONE single input and literally streaming to a dedicated Multicast address such as the local LAN allowable Multicast address 224.0.0.1 and put your separate content streams on the port of your choice as in 224.0.0.1:7777 , thats ONE single multicast video stream for anyone on the same LAN section to load up VLC and tune into 224.0.0.1:7777, they all get that one single stream at the same time, result MASSIVE Bandwidth saving over the 100 Unicast streamers...

    diagram was right all along to choose VLC as that IS your best end user option (free or not forget payed for options as they invariably use generic and free Older VLC code underneath anyway ) for taking anything you can view with it and so also able to Multicast stream that same input with a few added options to the cli line over Multicast to save vast amounts of bandwidth for the good of everyone and keep high quality video content too , no crumby 500Kbit/s low quality streaming here....

    also, Tricky_Dicky , the reason you should Not use "Windows Media Encoder and Streaming server" is simple, QUALITY for a given bandwidth, and they don't do AVC/H.264 real-time encoding with the best (both in speed, and visually highest quality) x264 Encoder , VLC does, in fact veetle on the fly web streaming uses it http://veetle.com/index.php , but that means using Your external upload bandwidth 0f around 1.5Mbit/s for good quality VLC 16:9 ratio video etc.
    Last edited by pip99; 11th June 2010 at 04:43 PM.

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  3. #17

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    http://www.edugeek.net/forums/networ...tml#post492767
    Quote Originally Posted by Cools View Post
    again Fail: these are generic antiquated wasteful TCP/IP Unicast , (not even as good or simple to stream within a few seconds of wanting to, semi anonymously if you like as 'veetle' with x264 AVC high visual quality ,see link below) not UDP Multicast for use on a local LAN, don't use them if your worried about overloading your single WAN/LAN connection for many video users inside.

    if your LAN kit doesn't filter Multicast packets like the ISP's do, hence why you cant run Multicast over most ISP's but can over the free IPv4 to IPv6 tunnels http://gogonet.gogo6.com/ as most of them know Multicast is good for saving bandwidth for many things...

    use Multicast and a simple VLC server and a tiny local web page (for instance http://www.rebol.com/news/cheyenne.html and its rebol CLI AND GUI network TCP/IP, UDP, and multicast aware scripting language http://rebolforum.com/index.cgi http://www.rebol.org/st-topic-detail...g=domain//html http://www.rebol.net/cookbook/ etc ) to tidy things up if you like for all your internal video LAN streaming and be happy.
    Last edited by pip99; 11th June 2010 at 05:53 PM.

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  5. #18

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    just follow the old Documentation:Streaming HowTo/Command Line Examples - VideoLAN Wiki and replace the multicast dst=239.255.12.42 address with the 224.0.0.1, the SAP ANNOUNCE is interesting to you too as then you can have any VLC turn on that SAP announce option and see the name you gave on the cli line and connect directly to its underline IP and port with a simple click for the VLC viewer anywhere on the LAN

    or use the VLC GUi wizard to start with setting the multicast address and SAP announce text etc until your happy with the cli...

    if you want to use a digital DVB card of whatever make to get the best input quality for realtime x264 encoding and streaming then have a read of this page too Documentation:Streaming HowTo/Stream a DVB Channel - VideoLAN Wiki as it can get a little odd.

    keep in mind there are several parts to any VLC line ,the input can be anything from a local ready made local AVC.H.264.AAC..mp4 file , a DVB card input, all the way to a remote URL file on some web server somewhere, then you have the streaming options totally separate, then you have the Codec Encoder option to tweak, stick to AVC/H.264/x264 options up to around 1.5Mbit/s bitrate should be fine for your normal HD content, AAC or mp3 audio options, and mp4/ts containers and you should be fine.

    for instance here's a good example of how a DVB card, US HD in this case , their internal veetle browser plug-in , and a generic external current VLC using x264 realtime encoding to feed http://www.veetle.com/view/index.html#4b8e3c391e48b gives VERY good quality even for wasteful unicast streaming, swap that external Unicast out for internal LAN VLC multicast and your on a massive bandwidth winner all the way home.

    OC if your feeding the local LAN from inside the network from a DVB-T card USB2 or whatever plug into a reasonable dual , quad Intel E4400 or better PC and VLC multicasting then you dont use ANY web/WAN bandwidth at all, and its all DVB+VLC multicast serving all your multicast SAP ANNOUNCE viewers No problem, you can even setup two or more and use them as backups or streaming other channels and content.... if you like .

    start off with something simple like streaming a ready made video file , download this veetle test 500Kbit/s 16:9 ratio AVC/H.264 file will be fine for that http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7Z3I2XCA as your input and set multicast to all the PCs on the LAN and see them all tune into this ready made file stream first..to show you it really does work for the given group of PC's on your LAN without router or switch problems interfering with the multicast packets on the LAN from anywhere inside your LAN etc, enjoy and be happy.

    AND Most of all, telling and actually Showing other people and students how its actually done and to start them using this VLC HD multicast everywhere you go, help spread the simple x264 AVC high quality encoding + VLC multicast streaming word.

    oh and you might want to look at these 16:9 ratios for downscaling your input feeds to a generic screen size to save CPU cycles if your connected PC is not so beefy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_resolutions

    downscaling real 19201080 16:9 content to 1024576 16:9 1.778 589,824 is a good compromise if you cant get your real-time encoding quality quite right to start with.
    Last edited by pip99; 11th June 2010 at 05:01 PM.

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  7. #19

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    if, as i assume you already have a UK free-sat capable digital dish and digital LMB set up and ready to use near your higher quality Quad PC that's going to be used for serving this high quality DVB input, then your going to also need a DVB-S or DVB-S2 card or perhaps a simple DVB-T terrestrial digital card and aerial of some sort to actually put inside or connect to that PC as a USB2 device etc...
    you will have to see for instance if any of these USB cards are good and work for you and the OS your using
    freesat dvb usb2 card - Google Search.

    nothing but grabbing directly the DVB stream and recoding it with VLC's x264 will produce good visual results like above, connecting an STB of some sort through composite connection to an old analogue TV card will NOT produce good results and only serve to put far more stress on the CPU and whole PC as it try's to cope with the low quality noisy analogue signal , using direct digital DVB Mpeg2 transport streams are your only real option for quality input for Live streaming.....Today.
    Last edited by pip99; 11th June 2010 at 06:13 PM.

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  9. #20

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    Pip99,
    Thanks for all this information. Currently I'm trying out some of these suggestions with DVB-T, not HD
    If anyone is following this path, I recommend using VLC Windows version.
    This is because some of the DVB-T dongles have an optional pre-amp, which Windows drivers can turn on. Symptoms of not having this on are: can't tune in to any multiplexes, or receive channels from high-powered multiplex only.

    Also beware that school RF distribution systems can filter out everything but specific analog channels, and then selectively boost the filtered signal. Obviously these will all have to be re-jigged before analog switch-off.

    I'm not sure if transcoding is necessary, but it sure helps if you install VLC on client computers to receive the stream

  10. #21

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    when i said "connecting an STB of some sort through composite connection to an old analogue TV card will NOT produce good results and only serve to put far more stress on the CPU and whole PC as it try's to cope with the low quality noisy analogue signal , using direct digital DVB Mpeg2 transport streams are your only real option for quality input for Live streaming.....Today." it seems there was a slight misunderstanding there on the terminology used and that's fine.... ill try and clarify for the readers.

    what i was referring to when i said 'analogue' was NOT analogue as in the old analogue free to air TV or even the now virtual defunct analogue sat broadcasts , or even that analogue local distribution kit you and many other community sites might have used for many years But rather the way You Feed a given INPUT into VLC.....

    for instance a generic stand alone STB (Set Top Box) of whatever kind DVB-T, DVB-T2 , DVB-S, DVB-S2, and even the old analogue TV and dual purpose analogue and DVB-T tuners output ports (not the way they take their aerial input signals)will have an analogue SCART and/or perhaps an analogue composite OUT port, even some really expensive older STB's might have a real VGA Out port but again that to is an analogue as its output..... and the only way to convert a VGA into real usable Digital stream usable for VLC and other streaming is an expensive digital real-time ( and lower quality than x264) Encoder that can produce this final digital stream/file etc...

    the most common way to set-up a proof of concept video stream in the old days was indeed take any analogue output from a SCART or composite connection stand alone VHS/DVD/free-view DVB-T and feed it into a cheap BT878 PC analogue PC TV card, but that's not good quality even today with quad CPUs able to transcode to any A/V codec and container you might want, ITS All ABOUT Your quality of INPUT....

    and simply spitting off the ready made single digitally Encoded MPEG2 channel content from its TS (transport stream ) multi channel container as Your input is the only real economical and simplest way to do it day, don't make your Higher quality Input harder than it needs to be that's why you use DVB-whatever as your input, pre-coding existing DVD's and Blue ray content down to your required multicast streaming is also the preferred way if you don't have a need/wish for near real-time streaming as in this live football streaming case..... OC going the extra mile and also Transcoding the live stream in timed sections and storing that at the same time your Multicasting means you can also set-up a file store for later re-run's if your viewers missed the near live streaming.

    Ohh the free freeNAS is good for storing your content and simple to use any old PC and a bunch of Hard drives iSCSI software raided you might have laying around Learn FreeNAS
    Last edited by pip99; 14th June 2010 at 03:01 PM.

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  12. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by diagram View Post
    Pip99,
    Thanks for all this information. Currently I'm trying out some of these suggestions with DVB-T, not HD
    If anyone is following this path, I recommend using VLC Windows version.
    This is because some of the DVB-T dongles have an optional pre-amp, which Windows drivers can turn on. Symptoms of not having this on are: can't tune in to any multiplexes, or receive channels from high-powered multiplex only.

    Also beware that school RF distribution systems can filter out everything but specific analog channels, and then selectively boost the filtered signal. Obviously these will all have to be re-jigged before analog switch-off.

    I'm not sure if transcoding is necessary, but it sure helps if you install VLC on client computers to receive the stream
    as for: is it worth it transcoding/pre-coding or what ever term you want to call it, then YES it is If you care about saving Bandwidth as your needs/wants grow.... and also picking the right options are a MUST hence why i state AVC/H.264, AAC/Mp3, and a good container, such as MP4 or Mkv... all tried and trusted High quality visual and now becoming generic everywhere ,Youtube ,facebook etc don't advertise it but they commissioned x264 dev's to code up their SD/HD encoding back ends, shame they dont keep upto date with their codebase or "high profile" Best quality default settings as found in your current x264

    remember, and always Keep in mind that while you can take say a generic DVB-T MPEG2 encoded PS (program Stream) and simply Multicast it directly over your LAN, and wireless 11G and 11N LAN sections, MPEG2 is a massive file-size and far higher bitrate for a given visual quality, that's exactly why Veetle recommend streaming weather real-time transcoded or Pre-coded in x264/H.264 codec format, TO save Masses of bandwidth per hour even in Unicast single client/server modes.

    so use x264 AVC AND "High profile" settings Everywhere TODAY, forget mpeg2 codec streaming even for LAN Uni/Multicast streaming , only stream mpeg2 codecs as your initial, very short term POC (Proof Of Concept) or a one off, or waste masses of bandwidth .. theres also the Very real question of Visual SD/HD quality over bandwidth too, only AVC/H.264 x264 (CRF=18) encoding gives you the benefit of both to a high quality standard.

    one other higher quality point to consider too, is look at any generic free-view mpeg2 channel and you will see even with a 100% DVB signal they (the TV companies) do this thing called real time 'stat-mixing' on their kit as its broadcast to you were they take several channels (4 on average) and real-time transcode them all in the given TS (transport Stream) taking/stealing some vital bitrate from the lesser viewed channels and giving that taken bitrate to the most used channel on that TS...

    and the tech bit that matters to you as the DVB viewer is... , if your watching , recording or as in this case Multicast re-streaming that lesser channel over the LAN to who and whatever kit, You SEE lots more blockiness and general visual interference as that channel hits starved bitrate video sections, that will always be there on the copy no matter what you do at your end viewer end, but see below

    that's also another reason to transcode to AVC/AAC/Mp4 as you can then also add in some real-time De-blocking, de-Noising, and slight sharpening filter to remove or at least lessen these TV broadcaster stat-mixed mpeg2 obvious visual errors....
    Last edited by pip99; 14th June 2010 at 04:17 PM.

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