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Wireless Networks Thread, RM CC3 - any good? in Technical; Originally Posted by GrumbleDook The thing that makes me wonder about the "love it or hate it" part of discussing ...
  1. #31

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    The thing that makes me wonder about the "love it or hate it" part of discussing CC3 is that for years this was done for Macs with MacAdmin from Hi-Resolution ... and noone slagged that off ... even now when it is perfectly possible to do things via OSX Server, people have no problem with MacAdmin being a viable solution.
    *grin* when was the last time you ever saw me recommend 3rd party admin middleware for OS X either ;-)

    Would people have the same atitude if Karoshi cost money or the Cutter Project was more that just managed service charges?
    Fair point.

    Though I'd make the same arguement for/against Karoshi that I did for CC3; if you want just about everything it offers and can't put it together yourself with the resources to hand then go for it. If you can and will be customising whatever baseline you get quite heavily because none of them quite meet your needs then they all start to look like poor value (even Free software, unless your time is worthless).

    We spend far to much time fighting CC3 where I am, because we're trying to go in a different direction from the direction it wants us to go.

    I've actually just distributed a paper at work discussing "the future of our network" where I talk about things, and I describe our use of CC3 as trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. And as I pointed out in this paper, it isn't the fault of either the peg or the hole that this doesn't work.

  2. #32

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    If your a school with no tech and just teachers then CC3 would prob be a good move then, but if you have a REAL tech on site an industry standard system is the way i would go.
    ok i did try and stay quite i really did...

    But i have pet hate that for people who use term real techwhen saying not to go for something like CC3 sorry but i'm a real tech (and think can justify that) and work on cc3 network...


    Russ

  3. #33

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    If your a school with no tech and just teachers then CC3 would prob be a good move then, but if you have a REAL tech on site an industry standard system is the way i would go.
    ok i did try and stay quite i really did...

    But i have pet hate that for people who use term real techwhen saying not to go for something like CC3 sorry but i'm a real tech (and think can justify that) and work on cc3 network...

    Russ
    Russ ... don't worry ... you're not a techie ... you're an EduGeeker ... it transcends *real* techies ;-)

  4. #34

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    The thing that makes me wonder about the "love it or hate it" part of discussing CC3 is that for years this was done for Macs with MacAdmin from Hi-Resolution ... and noone slagged that off ... even now when it is perfectly possible to do things via OSX Server, people have no problem with MacAdmin being a viable solution.
    *grin* when was the last time you ever saw me recommend 3rd party admin middleware for OS X either ;-)
    Fair cop guvna ;-)

    Would people have the same atitude if Karoshi cost money or the Cutter Project was more that just managed service charges?
    Fair point.

    Though I'd make the same arguement for/against Karoshi that I did for CC3; if you want just about everything it offers and can't put it together yourself with the resources to hand then go for it. If you can and will be customising whatever baseline you get quite heavily because none of them quite meet your needs then they all start to look like poor value (even Free software, unless your time is worthless).

    We spend far to much time fighting CC3 where I am, because we're trying to go in a different direction from the direction it wants us to go.

    I've actually just distributed a paper at work discussing "the future of our network" where I talk about things, and I describe our use of CC3 as trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. And as I pointed out in this paper, it isn't the fault of either the peg or the hole that this doesn't work.
    Any chance of a copy of that paper? I am still looking at and working on the difference between the technical and functional specifications on infrastructure from Becta ... and real world solutions give far more weight to the discussions

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Katem,

    You might also consider the support angle to all this. Suppose you manage to get a working system together by doing some reading up, making use of local resources and edugeek website. What will then happen is that something will break and you will have to fix it. You need to feel confident that you can make it work again. If that's not the case then you need to be paying someone so you can call them up and get help.

  6. #36
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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    @Russdev: I have to admit I was in the category for "trained chimp = CC3" but since using it for two years before I finally moved away from CC3 I realised I was just being evil CC3 is these days a good option if it weren't for the price and a few sore points I had with the old Service Pack 4 (for instance) from RM its a good package I think it does make things easier and means you can concentrate on the actual running of the network and technical innovations. I have been told by RM in the past though that the CC3 client access license isn't needed if you just want to connect a "normal" machine to the network without extra CC3 connect workstation software which means most of what you want CC3 for setting up and running the domain can be done and still have some control of the system itself, I think you may lose the Package management but you could just use Active Directory to push the MSIs out you create with Winstall LE. So then you only need a Microsoft Windows CAL ?

    Don't worry Russ you are a real techie! lol

    Wes

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    @wes

    Gald to know i am

    Yes you only need cc licnese if using rm package manager, tutor, virutal cd software and couple of other things...

    But if go down that route what will need to buy is a cal

    Russ

  8. #38

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Lol, if you were quoted £100 for CC3 license you have been ripped off :P Buying in bulk is even cheaper

    How can you justify your assertion that CC3 techs/managers aren't real?

  9. #39

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    I know you have already annoyed some people with these comments but I would seriously like to challange certain statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    RMCC3 is short hand for "how to waste money". £100 per PC client licence alone, that would cost us £23,000 just on that, never mind the the actual server software.
    You are being ripped off at that price ...

    Should take 1 week max to have a whole system setup and ready to go, and when its in it should just work, anybody who has Administrator rights on an Active Directory should be more than capable of setting up the above.
    Are you serious? 1 week? Have you never heard of planning a deployment to meet the needs of the client? Heck, you should be spending at least one week talking to the staff about needs ... not including the time spent building the test system, preparing images for RIS and MSIs for deployment ... are you only going to stick MS Office on or something?

    4 weeks planning the deployment (presuming you still have a system that you are running with and supporting) including consultation with staff. 1 week on the test server (1 DC, 1 member server running IIS if possible, 3 XP clients on different HALs). If you prebuild workstations with all required software on then 3 days per room for geting an image ready for RIS, if not and you have a standard build then 1 day per machine but 2 weeks for making MSIs of software ... and then you have the deployment phase.

    You build the proper DC with FSMO roles ... you makes sure it is happy (2 days) ... you build the second server ... you make sure it is happy and you than promote it and make sure thing s are happy between servers ... (2 days) ... you then build in RIS ... you then start loading a few machines onto the domain .. you test deploy a few ... (2-3 days)

    You then move the file server across, ensuring shares and perms are ok ... and then web, mail, print and so on ...

    You then test deploy a full room ...

    Then you sit back and check what you have done before pushing out to everywhere ....

    Sounds like a lot of work? That is why some schools buy in a managed service or management software such as CC3 ...

    Save tens of thousands of ££££ in money
    Have a fast and clean network system
    Move client OS when YOU choose to, not when the 3rd party managment software supports it and then get charged stupid money for an upgrade.
    The 3rd party software is usually behind whilst they fix problems that occur due to the OS being changed from what it was meant to be like in documentation from the original provider ...

    Even with WSUS and patch management I still opt for the 3 working day policy on applying patches ... I always wait to see what went wrog for others. This has save my skin time and time again ... there is something to be said for not rushing into changes and allowing others to make the mistakes.

    If your a school with no tech and just teachers then CC3 would prob be a good move then, but if you have a REAL tech on site an industry standard system is the way i would go.
    Now have a read of the above instructions for planning and deploying a domain ... that *is* an *industry standard* way of deploying and written up fr a company that was doing a major deployment of a large number of machines ... a mere 150. If a *real* tech is going to spend that long on it I think I would not be happy with a tech who was only going to spend a week on it.

    And just so you remember ... we are *industry* ... the education industry!

    rant over now ... back off to scream at SIMS and Assessment Manager.

  10. #40
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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    (I won't mention TCO here ... because TCO is slike stats ... it can be made to say anything!)
    I think cost is the whole point here tho'.

    The only reason my school doesn't go with RM CCx is because the costs are so very high.

    It's part of the downfall of our industry that poor descisions are made around costs. Too often schools pay far too little expecting everything in return.

    So anyone looking at this option has to consider the sustainability. From your statements katem I would say you're no where near in a position to even consider such a large expenditure. Though my school has surprised me several times with what they can pull out of the bag when they want something.

    Tickmike sits at the other end of the scale, spending practically zero.

    Opinions on CC3: I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Quackers says. I can do everything webman states are the benefits of CC3 without that much effort really. All i've seen that impresses me about CC3 is the thorough GP permissions.

    I'm sure there are many other options to simplify administration to consider. Ranger is another expensive front end for example.

    Another option might be an outside contractor to take care of the bigger issues. I bought in support from a big company for an initial £1000 for 10 non time limited 'tickets'. As it hapens I haven't used them yet, although I did call upon them as expert opinion on the dust damage to our servers by building contractors this year.

    So there are lots of ways to crack this nut. Finance is a major factor. If I were your school I'd like to know of the options.

  11. #41

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    what mark says in last sentence get your options and see what is besrt for your school as been said look at everything that need to find from workstations, server and to support..

    dont think can school afford this do as tony calls it 'blue sky' thinking work out what you want from network if money wasnt an option but together some proposals.

    Then look to see where you can cut back on things...

    Russ

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Why is no-one mentioning the best of both worlds... Not Viglin, Not CC3.... but a vanilla Network with RANGER ?

    Ranger does Printer Control, Deployment, GPO's (address bar lock) Work shutdown .. etc etc.

    www.rangersuite.co.uk.

  13. #43

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Grommit, thats a good idea. We have that set-up and use AD and Ranger together to lock our system down and has proven to be successful. Teachers do moan now-and-then about but we're still getting to grips to W2k3 having moved from NT4 so with their help were ironing out the bugs. Quota enforcer is a good tool and flags up and annoying window that can't be moved or minimized by the user, forcing them to click the explore button and delete/move files. But this does not stop the user saving more data to their home drives so no work is lost.

    Anyways my 2pence worth! lol

    Robert!
    (Skive hard play hard!)

  14. #44

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    Erm... CC3 is just the same as vanilla+ranger. Eg. a bunch of tools that sit on top of Windows 2000/2003 on the server and XP on the clients.

  15. #45

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    Re: RM CC3 - any good?

    lol ironey rm own ranager eeven through they are still seprate enterity for few years they just share code and information.

    russ

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