+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 47
Windows Thread, The costs of a RM network? in Technical; Well using a managed solution isn't all sweetness and light you still get the same problems you would with a ...
  1. #16
    wesleyw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kingswinford
    Posts
    2,205
    Thank Post
    223
    Thanked 50 Times in 44 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    30

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Well using a managed solution isn't all sweetness and light you still get the same problems you would with a vanilla network but with the added complexity of RM on top so things do get hairy from time to time. It does free up the admin burden so there can be time for innovation however in Russ's case with only him there I would think he gets a lot of "My rojector is saying clean filter", "the toner is empty", "this software hasn't been installed or doesn't work" so you still have a lot to do RM makes certain things easier but problems still exist.

    Wes

  2. #17
    Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,092
    Thank Post
    117
    Thanked 70 Times in 48 Posts
    Rep Power
    56

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    I was always under the aasumption that RM was a fully managed service for the most part. I have been asked to do a comparison for the school to compare what we do now, Me a NM and 2 tecs running a vanilla setup and moving over to RM as an example. You hear things like once you have RM in you are not allowed to mess with anything they are managing etc. for example we have a fully RM school down here and if anything goes wrong they have to call out an engineer, now it has taken on occasion upto 4 days sometimes longer for that engineer to arrive. In the mean time more machines have gone down and the tech there was powerless to do anything because of the managed contract.

  3. #18

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,011
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 190 Times in 146 Posts
    Rep Power
    106

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disease
    This is what I simply do not understand and probably never will until I am in this situation.

    If you are using a managed solution, what else is there to do all day everyday? Network Managed by X, desktops managed by X, Servers Managed by X. There is myself here and 2 guys under me, we are busy all the time. What do people who have a fully managed solution do all day?

    I do not mean this to come across as a flame or as an accusation I am truely interested.
    CC3 isn't a managed solution, it's a middleware layer that attempts to make some aspects of administration easier.

    We've got a team of 6 people here and trust me, we're all quite busy.

  4. #19
    Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,092
    Thank Post
    117
    Thanked 70 Times in 48 Posts
    Rep Power
    56

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto

    We've got a team of 6 people here and trust me, we're all quite busy.
    I understand as I say I am not trying to flame anyone just trying to understand, are there different levels of contract then, as posted above we have a full rm school in the city and they have a nightmare at times?

  5. #20

    webman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    8,403
    Thank Post
    637
    Thanked 961 Times in 661 Posts
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    319

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    The only time we've had an RM engineer in was to sort out the RAID array on our SIMS server. We don't pay RM support any more because we found we didn't need it.

  6. #21
    wesleyw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kingswinford
    Posts
    2,205
    Thank Post
    223
    Thanked 50 Times in 44 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    30

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    It depends on how the contract was done but in most cases RM don't mind you customising or playing with the system as long as you don't change their specific GPOs (you can add your own). RM is a good tool but thats all you still need to do the job most techs and NMs do. RM makes it easier to do things but still hinders in other ways so it depends on what you need and can afford you can install RM CC3 on any brand of hardware so there you don't have to pay RMs extreme prices for servers, desktops and laptops.

    Wes

  7. #22

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    East Midlands
    Posts
    737
    Thank Post
    17
    Thanked 105 Times in 65 Posts
    Rep Power
    36

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Hi All,

    My big problem with RM is the cost of the license, they just would not provide any details on what makes up a CC3 license. I would like to see the license debunked so people can choose the things they actually utilise on their network.

    We can all work out few itesm that may be included like CAL for server, RM tutor, VCD etc. but my point is that what if the school does not use VCDs or RM Tutor (such an awful title with the silly RM badge on it - come on give credits to the real developers (Net Support manager) not the guys in Abingdon)

    They are charging us all for things we don't utilise. I have written to RM about this and have consulted with my account manager (who sadly has left the company) but i haven't got any definative answer on the CC3 Client Access License.

    Server CAL = £1.xx from Ramesys

    Server 2003 Standard Edition - £49.xx from Ramesys

    Windows XP Licenses - comes with the new PCs you buy

    I think all people who have vanilla network have a higher skills set in their team to manage and improve the network. For smaller schools the RM solution works but that's about it, its doesn't scale very well with larger schools and its get time consuming building workstations that take 2-3 hours to build. This is another fustrating thing about RM - the build process is rubbish. This might change with CC4 but then again that's probably credit to Microsoft for bringing out new deployment technology and not RM who just uses this and charges schools for the priviliage.

    The solutions they bring out to make life easier doesn really work and that's evident of the number of peopel fustrated on the RM Communities forum. Tools such as RM Station Tidy, Local Support Tools etc don't deliver and oftern the system admins will use free or paid third-party tools to get the facility i.e. WOL.

    That's enough of the rant for today.

  8. #23

    webman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    8,403
    Thank Post
    637
    Thanked 961 Times in 661 Posts
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    319

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    To be honest ashok, we find the build process pretty smooth, and we can do it remotely. And if you take a backup image once it's built it takes less than 15 minutes to restore depending on disk speed. What is it you don't like about it - and compared to what?

    Station Tidy is pathetic, yes - but we use a shutdown script on clients to clean profiles off. Local Support Tools have worked fantastically since they were installed, and WOL is also handled by a custom-made script.

  9. #24

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    East Midlands
    Posts
    737
    Thank Post
    17
    Thanked 105 Times in 65 Posts
    Rep Power
    36

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Webman,

    Yeah that's fine one you taken the image but when the new Service Pack arrives and it states you must rebuid all stations, it becomes a big problem, i'm comparing the process to something like Ghost or RIS, which we have on our admin network (vanilla network) and the station is build with all the apps etc. 34 mins flat even if you are building 50 stations at once from one server.

    I don't like to buy RM HW because its expensive so you need to add the third-party drivers which is fine and this works okay, until you apply one of their HSP which not only breaks the building on RM machines but also others as well.

    Also RM still can't explain why WKs goes into this reboot cycle and the only thing to do is to do a rebuild, which can't be done remotely because in order to this the station must be switched on and windows loaded (i think it then reboots automatically and carries on with the rebiuld process). However because of the reboot cycle of BSOD it doesn't reach the loading windows stage.

    I have been quoted £5000 (2 x 2500) to migrate 2 x DCs to new HW. So all i'm getting is the migration, because the £5000 does not include the cost of the servers!!.

    How can we pay £5000 for DC migration - this is the kinds of things that get me, why on earth does it cost £5000 for 2 domain controller migration. - You got me started on this now

  10. #25

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,011
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 190 Times in 146 Posts
    Rep Power
    106

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disease
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto

    We've got a team of 6 people here and trust me, we're all quite busy.
    I understand as I say I am not trying to flame anyone just trying to understand, are there different levels of contract then, as posted above we have a full rm school in the city and they have a nightmare at times?
    I think we're talking at cross puposes here.

    RM sell a product, CC3, a middleware layer that sits on top of Windows and attempts to make running a system yourself easier (with varying degrees of success depending on who you ask). We still have a full network to run and do everything ourselves.

    That's what we have.

    You seem to be talking about a managed service, where you outsource all or part of support of your network to RM's own technicians? While I'd imagine they also use CC3 to achieve this, we don't do anything like this ourselves.

  11. #26
    Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,092
    Thank Post
    117
    Thanked 70 Times in 48 Posts
    Rep Power
    56

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    ok, I see what you are saying, so it's dependant on how much you want to relinquish, if you relinquish all control you end up with the worst case scenario as stated, wonder how this will work with BSF then and BSF want schools to go over to fully managed solutions. (although I may be wrong on that s well )

  12. #27
    tosca925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Midlands
    Posts
    1,547
    Thank Post
    4
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Right I'll just give you the costs then RM CC3 full CAL is around £60 - £70 this including the windows CAL and licenses you to use RM CC3 on the workstation if you have older RM 2.4 license you can buy the upgrade which is around about £45 the last time I checked you will need to buy a Windows CAL with this though. Support from RM directly is about 8k

    Well on that cost alone i could employ a junior tech and stick with a Vanilla network.

  13. #28

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Clog Land
    Posts
    178
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    The Big thing for me is if I'm doing the work myself I know I have done it properley. I dont have the same time restraints as an external engineer. I take as long as I need to do the job. If there are problems after I dont need to do lots of guess work to try and find out whats been done.

    Maybe its fairer to compare the costs and benifits of a managed solution to that of a good network manager running a vanilla or opensource system?

    *that is not to infer that anyone running an RM or other managed system is not a good network manager*

  14. #29

    webman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    8,403
    Thank Post
    637
    Thanked 961 Times in 661 Posts
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    319

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    That migration cost will be £1000 a day for the RM engineer's fees, on an estimated time for migration for those amount of servers.

    Since our Local Support Tools work fine we can rebuild all machines as and when necessary. Also the BSOD screen is a PITA but we just restore from image (initially taken just after Windows is installed) and then the only time is re-installing the software packages.

    The HSPs have never caused us any problems - most of our NICs are supported by the default rtl8139 or Intel driver set. We've only had to add a VIA chipset and it's worked fine.

    I obviously can't speak for people who do have problems with hardware support packs, local support tools and so on, but they all work for us so have no grounds to complain.

  15. #30

    TechMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    3,286
    Thank Post
    225
    Thanked 405 Times in 302 Posts
    Rep Power
    162

    Re: The costs of a RM network?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_T
    The Big thing for me is if I'm doing the work myself I know I have done it properley. I dont have the same time restraints as an external engineer. I take as long as I need to do the job. If there are problems after I dont need to do lots of guess work to try and find out whats been done.

    Maybe its fairer to compare the costs and benifits of a managed solution to that of a good network manager running a vanilla or opensource system?

    *that is not to infer that anyone running an RM or other managed system is not a good network manager*
    As Roberto said, I think this is at cross purposes. Many have the view the RM only supply a managed service where you have to wait for them to do anything and Techs and NM's can't touch anything. There is that option but not everyone has to take it.

    Like webman, we have had an RM engineer out 1 for a raid disk failure because it was their hardware. Apart from that we fiddle with just about anything and everything, create our own GPOs, install hardware (both RM and third party) and everything else people mention that they do with out RM. I also think this is where some of the rage comes from in these discussions, that misrecognition of what an RM network is doing.

    The only added burden having RM has put on us is that we wait for them to release security fixes and service packs. We could go ahead and install them ourselves but we just couldn't do the range of testing that RM do so we wait for their releases. This can take a while sometimes.

    When we looked at going RM or vanilla we weighed up our time being spent setting up a whole vanilla set-up or having an RM one parachuted in and customising it. For us the RM solution was more cost effective as GPOs and Security were ready made at varying levels, software was ready, an OS image was there and we could get our skill sets up to speed while we had a working solution in place.

    Cost wise looking at CALS and hardware and all of that Vanilla would have been cheaper, but adding in training and our time was the trickiest bit and I think that is where RM won out. As someone else brought up while the RM system was being set up and was ticking over we were able to get on with setting up other areas, setting up a new server for the intranet, sorting out training materials and working out processes instead of both of us at the coal face setting up all the backend stuff that would have been needed for a new network. I would have loved to have done that but as it would have been the first attempt at new server (2003), new concepts (GPOs, RIS and AD) and all the training materials, intranet and processes as well I don't think it would have worked perfectly first time and definitely not fully up on time.

    Sorry, blathered a bit and no costings but it is hard to put exact prices on them as it depends on your skill sets, your situation and your needs. Plus another bad point against RM, cost does depend on your bargaining skills and power.

    HTH

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. WEEE disposal costs!
    By starscream in forum Hardware
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 17th January 2008, 01:41 PM
  2. Primary Broadband Costs
    By TechSupp in forum General Chat
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 9th November 2007, 06:46 PM
  3. Exchange 2007 costs?
    By tosca925 in forum Windows
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 6th May 2007, 02:44 PM
  4. Printing Costs
    By eejit in forum Budgets and Expenditure
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 24th November 2006, 12:32 AM
  5. RBC Costs
    By Nij.UK in forum General Chat
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12th July 2006, 03:57 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •