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Windows Vista Thread, It has to end here... in Technical; PPPPS All this written while waiting for last nights alcohol to wear off before I can go out driving and ...
  1. #76

    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    PPPPS All this written while waiting for last nights alcohol to wear off before I can go out driving and do some Christmas Shopping Laughing (Is it 1/2pint per hour????)
    Off topic, but I did my last food shop in Tesco this morning on the way into work at 8am. It was packed!! I'm not going into any more shops till after Christmas now! You can't make me, I won't go!

  2. #77
    torledo's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk
    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Maybe it's a wakeup call to ditch these legacy apps, or you could always run it in an xp vm under vista, although that seems like a bit too much work to get a 16-bit app to work.

    It's not too clever using software with no telephone support or at the minimum software updates available on the net. I appreciate that even if you did upgrade these apps that you'd still have 30% of you're apps not Vista compatible, but will this still be the case 6 months from now after SP1 ? Maybe its time for a little bit of prodding of the software makers.
    Do you work in a school? Our school is a middle school with about 600 kids. Our budget isn't huge, so we can't afford to just 'ditch these legacy apps'. So all you've just confirmed is that to continue we will either need new apps or a different solution to run them.

    And regarding telephone support - I would suggest that a significant number of our apps were bought more than 12 months ago, and as such most, if not all, of them would be outside any original support period.

    We simply do not have the money to sustain high amounts of software purchasing or support.

    Also, our teachers have built up their plans and lessons based on the software we have - replacing a large chunk of it would mean a complete new learning curve for them. Some of this software was purchased in the mid-late nineties, discarding what could be 10 years experience of a piece of software that does a job perfectly in favour of updating to a flashy new OS with a new piece of software seems like a poor decision from a school point of view.

    Of course, from a technical point of view, I could simply say 'all the old apps will go - if you want replacements you had better get buying', but then that wouldn't be helping T&L much.
    In you're original post you said a lot of the software is no longer maintained, in which case you've got valid reason to request alternative, newer software. As for 12months support contracts, well we have a lot of software that was purchased a few years ago and as these companies are niche education providers they're tech support are happy to take our calls.

    And as Nick has mentioned, you and your teachers need to get to the bottom of how often some of the software is being used, i'm sure there are a lot of apps that are hardly ever used or aren't as crucial to lesson plans. These can quite easily be retired.

    As for the learning curve, ha!, welcome to the 21st century. I know teachers don't like to do anything that involves reskilling or even concentrating for that matter - but having to learn new apps is a necessary evil. I'm all in favour of the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mantra but sometimes an upgrade facilitates an improvement.

  3. #78
    originofsymmetry's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    [quoteFor example, the software made by Microsmile for maths is mostly 16bit - which simply won't work as there is no 16bit support in vista.[/quote]

    I tried it on my Vista lappy and it worked. Errored on close and the icons don't appear but it still functions

  4. #79
    torledo's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmonkey
    I do agree that vb 6 is a bit out dated considering it is not OO but I still enjoy using it.
    Absolutely. VB6 is an enjoyable language. If people want multithreading, or inheritance, or true OO, then they need to use C or something similar. Long gone are the days when Basic had Beginners in the name. I think it's should be "Bloody Akward Symbolic Instruction Code" .Net.

    (Sorry, diverging there a little)

    I mean how many versions of one operating system do you need ?
    Couldn't agree more. I think they deliberately did this to confuse people. It's completely illogical.
    Well, here i go drifting OT as usual, but my here's tuppanceworth;

    Err, these days you don't really want C for anything but the very geeky, such as low level linux programming or sockets programming. C# offers the power and flexibility of C++ without the drawbacks.

    If you want OO, inheritance et al. VB.net is you're man (or C#) whatever you're most comfortable using.

    Couldn't have been much of a 'save VB6' campaign, as most of the serious VB and asp developers have embraced Vb.net and asp.net, sure there's been the odd gripe about the years of training and hours of study going to waste and the paradigm shift of programming in .NET but the objections have been minimal. I see more complaints from COM developers, and becuase COM projects were so widespread, MS hasn't hit the nail in that particular coffin just yet.

  5. #80
    enjay's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    As for the learning curve, ha!, welcome to the 21st century. I know teachers don't like to do anything that involves reskilling or even concentrating for that matter - but having to learn new apps is a necessary evil. I'm all in favour of the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mantra but sometimes an upgrade facilitates an improvement.
    It's not necessarily as simple as saying "change is good, m'kay". If the teaching staff don't understand the reasons behind the upgrade, all they will see is having that learning curve forced on them by IT and that will be met with understandable opposition. I know plenty of teachers who are more than willing to learn and do new things if they can see a benefit; it's about how you sell the change to the users.

  6. #81

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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by originofsymmetry
    [quoteFor example, the software made by Microsmile for maths is mostly 16bit - which simply won't work as there is no 16bit support in vista.
    I tried it on my Vista lappy and it worked. Errored on close and the icons don't appear but it still functions[/quote]

    Depends on the package. Half of the smile stuff we have is 16bit - and this simply will not work. There is no 16bit support at all in Vista. Some of the smile software is 32bit though.

    Also, having it error on close and have no icons appearing is good enough as 'not working' to a teacher. 90% working is not 100% working.

    Quote Originally Posted by "torledo
    In you're original post you said a lot of the software is no longer maintained, in which case you've got valid reason to request alternative, newer software. As for 12months support contracts, well we have a lot of software that was purchased a few years ago and as these companies are niche education providers they're tech support are happy to take our calls.
    It is not a valid reason to request alternative software. If the software still serves its purpose then changing it just because it is old is poor practice. If it has other issues too, then fine, but age alone is not good enough reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by "torledo
    And as Nick has mentioned, you and your teachers need to get to the bottom of how often some of the software is being used, i'm sure there are a lot of apps that are hardly ever used or aren't as crucial to lesson plans. These can quite easily be retired.
    I don't install any software on machines unless it does get used. Every package that is installed is used by staff - this was one of the first things I did when I moved into the role, remove the stuff people don't use.

    Quote Originally Posted by "torledo
    As for the learning curve, ha!, welcome to the 21st century. I know teachers don't like to do anything that involves reskilling or even concentrating for that matter - but having to learn new apps is a necessary evil. I'm all in favour of the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mantra but sometimes an upgrade facilitates an improvement.
    As NickJones says, you can't just go around saying that. Staff are usually up for new things, if put to them in the right manner. However, looking at the volume of applications that would near replacing, this would require a huge amount of 're-skilling'. We're talking about a collection of software and skills that have built up over 10 years. Having to replace half of that and relearn everything on one big lump just cannot and will not happen. I would not expect any user to have to learn so much new info in such a short time.

    The change to Vista would simply be seen as change for change's sake and as such it would be vehemently opposed by staff.

  7. #82
    torledo's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk
    Quote Originally Posted by originofsymmetry
    [quoteFor example, the software made by Microsmile for maths is mostly 16bit - which simply won't work as there is no 16bit support in vista.
    I tried it on my Vista lappy and it worked. Errored on close and the icons don't appear but it still functions
    Depends on the package. Half of the smile stuff we have is 16bit - and this simply will not work. There is no 16bit support at all in Vista. Some of the smile software is 32bit though.

    Also, having it error on close and have no icons appearing is good enough as 'not working' to a teacher. 90% working is not 100% working.

    Quote Originally Posted by "torledo
    In you're original post you said a lot of the software is no longer maintained, in which case you've got valid reason to request alternative, newer software. As for 12months support contracts, well we have a lot of software that was purchased a few years ago and as these companies are niche education providers they're tech support are happy to take our calls.
    It is not a valid reason to request alternative software. If the software still serves its purpose then changing it just because it is old is poor practice. If it has other issues too, then fine, but age alone is not good enough reason.[/quote]

    I didn't say change the software becuase it is old, i said you have a valid reason becuase the software is no longer maintained and supported. There is plenty of older software that is maintained 10 or 11 years after first release. Typically when this period of extended support ends companies will move on to the newer software. Ofcourse i shouldn't equate you're 16bit educational software to a legacy line of business application. But if you have technical issues with the product that can't be resolved because there is no support or patch or update available then is that not a valid reason to upgrade ? particularly if it causes 'downtime'.

  8. #83
    enjay's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    But if you have technical issues with the product that can't be resolved because there is no support or patch or update available then is that not a valid reason to upgrade ?
    The users won't view "it doesn't work on Vista" as being an issue, and therefore the upgrade wouldn't be seen as being for a valid reason (indeed some would see that as a reason to not upgrade XP rather than a reason to upgrade the application) UNLESS you can convince them that the move from XP to Vista is worth it.

  9. #84


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    Re: It has to end here...

    UNLESS you can convince them that the move from XP to Vista is worth it.
    Which would be quite a feat, given peoples experience so far.
    I reckon MS willbe giving vista away to schools for free come BETT because the responce from schools has been so poor.

  10. #85
    enjay's Avatar
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    Re: It has to end here...

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    UNLESS you can convince them that the move from XP to Vista is worth it.
    Which would be quite a feat, given peoples experience so far.
    Indeed! From what I've seen of it in the 6ish months I've been using it, there isn't a single business reason to upgrade - and I have said that to the Powers That Be - although I'm still confident that at some point, our hand will be forced by software or hardware compatibility issue so I might as well get used to it now so that I can manage the move as efficiently as possible (as I said earlier).



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