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Windows Server 2008 R2 Thread, Using Backup Exec 2010 to backup more than 1 server in Technical; Originally Posted by pantscat Ah - that makes quite a difference to strategy I think having multiple buildings. Indeed it ...
  1. #16

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantscat View Post
    Ah - that makes quite a difference to strategy I think having multiple buildings.
    Indeed it does. But then, every organisation needs to look at what provides the best solution to them individually. For example, you could use a load of external hard drives, and do a drive swap with another local school.

  2. #17

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    This is very true... or a VPN based site mirror for DR. (Maybe a bit pricey...) :-)

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    36Degrees's Avatar
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    Also, make sure that the version of Backup Exec didn't come with the device itself as a QuickStart edition. If that was the case then you can't add agents to backup other remote servers, you need to purchase a licence for the full version first. This will obviously add costs but you can at least then ensure that you get the latest versions of everything.

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    Thanks for all the input people, info taken on board. I tell the management what happens if somethings not done right and they just let it go over their heads, i put things in place and then get told i cant do it. Highlight of my career so far here. I keep a record of what i tell them now, so if something did happen, i can just turn round and say wel i informed you on such and such a date that this might happen and you shrugged it off.

    I guess i can just keep trying.

    Thanks for the input though!

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    We are using an entirely disk based backup system here, and it beats the tape based solution we had previously in every way - ease of restores, longevity of the medium, price, speed, etc...
    Disk based backup is fantastic for all the reasons you mention, but it falls down on the ability to take the backup offsite, and the ability to store it in a fireproof state. Unless you are using expensive SSD's transporting hard disks doesn't make for a relliable solution due to the moving parts.

    Disk to Disk to Tape is the way I want to go, disk backup and restore is fast, but storage of a Grandfather/Father/Son system for archival and retrieval involves many many disks and tape becomes much more cost effective.

    The chance of us losing both buildings is tiny.
    Yes but what if... aircraft crash? Arson attack on school ... both buildings? How far apart are your buildings? I've got a 2nd server room across site (2.5km away) thats probably ok ... but you can never be sure ... I'm sure there where many companies in buncefield saying .. 100m is far enough away.

    Just to note, i've used offsite internet backup before and i'm not a big fan, ok for the odd file etc, but a full server restore over internet bandwidth is not a pleasant thought!

    Skr

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    36Degrees's Avatar
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    One stick to beat them with is exams. I was told by our Exams Officer some years ago that exam boards won't accept computer failure as an excuse for not submitting work.

    Do you have a Languages department? Where do they store the files form their oral recordings? What happens when the exam board says the files on CD are corrupted and Languages have accidentally deleted that file?

    The same goes for PE, Drama, Music, etc. so if you trust them speak to your Exams Officer or do a bit of research on the websites of the main exam boards.

  7. #22

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkreeM1980 View Post
    Disk based backup is fantastic for all the reasons you mention, but it falls down on the ability to take the backup offsite, and the ability to store it in a fireproof state. Unless you are using expensive SSD's transporting hard disks doesn't make for a relliable solution due to the moving parts.
    Fireproof safes are 100% useless. No fire brigade will allow you into a site until it is declared safe. Most fireproof safes have a time of, what, 30 minutes? An hour? Most fires burn for longer than that in my experience. Especially in a building filled with flammable materials like a school. Your safe contents will be a pool of goo by the time you get to it.

    Disk to Disk to Tape is the way I want to go, disk backup and restore is fast, but storage of a Grandfather/Father/Son system for archival and retrieval involves many many disks and tape becomes much more cost effective.
    Have you see the price of hard disks now? We're getting a new NAS for backups, with 8 x 2TB business quality SATA hard disks, total price, including the NAS? 1700. 3 year warranty on the lot. Tapes, when you consider you should be replacing them yearly according to best practice guidelines, come in more expensive than that even!

    Yes but what if... aircraft crash? Arson attack on school ... both buildings? How far apart are your buildings? I've got a 2nd server room across site (2.5km away) thats probably ok ... but you can never be sure ... I'm sure there where many companies in buncefield saying .. 100m is far enough away.
    Its a price vs probability exercise. Probability of a plane crash? Miniscule. Chance of something taking out both buildings? Slightly higher than that but still tiny. There is no way of preparing for everything. What if the nearby nuclear power station goes into meltdown? Will we be busy grabbing backups? I doubt it! If we were running a country, then no, the system I'm using wouldn't be good enough. I'd expect backups across multiple redundant links with data-centers spread across the country.

    Just to note, i've used offsite internet backup before and i'm not a big fan, ok for the odd file etc, but a full server restore over internet bandwidth is not a pleasant thought!
    Agreed. Backing up hundreds of gigabytes of data over a net connection sounds like a bad idea to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Fireproof safes are 100% useless. No fire brigade will allow you into a site until it is declared safe. Most fireproof safes have a time of, what, 30 minutes? An hour? Most fires burn for longer than that in my experience. Especially in a building filled with flammable materials like a school. Your safe contents will be a pool of goo by the time you get to it.
    Fireproof safes in the server room are 100% useless, fireproof safes carefully placed with seperation from the server room and not on the 3rd floor can be useful. Ours are minimum 8hrs burn time and are strategically placed near the perminter of buildings. We have one in the next building and then one on the other side of site, 2.5km is not wholly offsite backup but it is 'acceptable' at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Have you see the price of hard disks now? We're getting a new NAS for backups, with 8 x 2TB business quality SATA hard disks, total price, including the NAS? 1700. 3 year warranty on the lot. Tapes, when you consider you should be replacing them yearly according to best practice guidelines, come in more expensive than that even!
    Yes, have you seen the price of tape? Our system uses 163 tapes for a full yearly rotation at the moment, total capacity of 65Tb uncompressed. Cost for full set of tapes is under 3k if i was to replace all each year. I wouldn't replace tapes only used once a year (quarterly, annual) each year, and would only replace monthly tapes every 2 years. Weekly tapes, every year definately. You find me a NAS that can do 65Tb for that cost?

    Disk to Disk to Tape - Yeah brilliant, Need about 8-10 Tb and can backup daily and go to tape once a week, reduce costs on tape and make life easier for restores. But with the tape rotation if i want to recover say a database from before the end of the last financial year I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Its a price vs probability exercise. Probability of a plane crash? Miniscule. Chance of something taking out both buildings? Slightly higher than that but still tiny.
    Totally agree, but what is the cost of the impact on operations if it happens? Our Offsite backup is still onsite. It still concerns me that if the disaster happened that the students could go and complete study elsewhere, however they would want their exam results and coursework etc to save having to repeat. With a school this is more essential as the education is compulsory so alternative arrangements for teaching would have to be found, and the students/examboards/etc would still want the data.

    Skr

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    good post and interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkreeM1980 View Post
    Fireproof safes in the server room are 100% useless, fireproof safes carefully placed with seperation from the server room and not on the 3rd floor can be useful. Ours are minimum 8hrs burn time and are strategically placed near the perminter of buildings. We have one in the next building and then one on the other side of site, 2.5km is not wholly offsite backup but it is 'acceptable' at the moment.
    Where on Earth did you get an 8 Hour data safe from?? We've been completely unable to find one, even having talked with local security firms to try and locate a data safe. Longest time we found was 120 minutes. Not to mention, one that could hold all of your 163 tapes would also need to be very large - and a 120 minute data safe that size comes in at about 2500 or so.

    Where did you get it and how much did it cost? Also, how did you have it delivered?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkreeM1980 View Post
    Totally agree, but what is the cost of the impact on operations if it happens? Our Offsite backup is still onsite. It still concerns me that if the disaster happened that the students could go and complete study elsewhere, however they would want their exam results and coursework etc to save having to repeat. With a school this is more essential as the education is compulsory so alternative arrangements for teaching would have to be found, and the students/examboards/etc would still want the data.
    If something happened in this area which had all of our buildings destroyed, or happened in your area which did the same (2.5km away!), then the last thing on anyone's minds would be the data at their school/college.

    You obviously draw your line higher than I do in the probability vs price exercise. That's fine, I just haven't read anything that would make me want to change our backup processes. Nor would our Bursar, who specifically asked us to stop using tapes due to the manual labour requirements, and therefore the possibility that things *won't* get backed up when someone forgets, or is off sick etc...
    Last edited by localzuk; 13th May 2011 at 08:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Where on Earth did you get an 8 Hour data safe from??
    Think i may have been wrong, can't find the manual right now, it's been here for about 4 years now, but was approx 4500 when new and is very shiny. We actually have 2 safes, each capacity about 100 tapes, mon-thurs are reasonably local to the server room and Fri/Weekend tapes are at the 2.5km site

    If something happened in this area which had all of our buildings destroyed, or happened in your area which did the same (2.5km away!)
    Quite possibly, but i used to be from commercial IT, and if the data hadn't been available to recover the companies would have probably been bust, this happened to quite a few after buncefield explosion. Although the premises etc were insured they couldn't trade without data and had cashflow nightmares. Education is different i know, but it is still a business with cashflow, and products (courses) and customers (pupils/students) so i try to apply similar logic.

    You obviously draw your line higher than I do in the probability vs price exercise.
    Probably, we also probably have different budgets and different priorities from management.


    stop using tapes due to the manual labour requirements, and therefore the possibility that things *won't* get backed up when someone forgets, or is off sick etc...
    This is most likley a scale thing, i have a team of 5 including mself so virtually no chance of no-one being in. Then it is a scheduled job on helpdesk system to change tapes and part of our morning routine to check back-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hasat1 View Post
    good post and interesting
    Yes it has been quite interesting.


    Skr
    Last edited by SkreeM1980; 13th May 2011 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Messed up tag on one of the quotes, now fixed

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    We use a NAS target for backups with a monthly job targeted at removable USB drives.
    The objective is to be able to recover data to any point in time in the last 6 years.
    The recovery of a specific server (OS included) is limited to the last 3 months.

    The NAS target can be replicated over a WAN Link using RSync or another hosted solution which as soon as we have the funds will be our next job.

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