Windows 8....urgh

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Originally Posted by Gatt

Reading a story on El Reg where they are saying Win 8 is likely to go the same as Vista due to the lack of sales and general dissatisfaction with the new Metro/Modern UI experience..

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Resistance is futile! :)

Lenovo exec: We didn't realize how big touch would be « CNET

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The industry did underestimate touchscreen demand, he admitted. But people are still buying PCs -- at least from Lenovo. In addition, sales of premium-priced computers are growing faster than other PC segments, he said.

"Lenovo's a little different from other companies," Smith said. "We're still seeing strong growth and a strong premium to the market overall... And this quarter, we're seeing strong growth across all product segments."

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Lenovo and its rivals have been counting on the latest version of Microsoft's operating system, Windows 8, to help bolster PC sales. So far, it doesn't appear to be helping much. NPD, another tech research firm, last week said that U.S. sales of Windows 8 devices during the initial four-week launch of Windows 8 dropped 21 percent compared with the same period a year ago.

However, Smith said that six months down the road, people will look back and determine the Windows 8 launch was pretty consistent with prior releases of the software.

And as CNET noted yesterday, touchscreen PCs generally are selling well. That's resulting in widespread supply shortages, but Smith said that should get better soon.

"As you go through any major architectural transition, you try to forecast accurately how much the attach rate will be on touch [or other features]," he said. "Across every major [shift] over the past 10 years, we're never right. The learning is, how do you respond to that? How does the industry change and evolve?"

In the case of touch, Smith said the industry will have to evaluate how it was so off about the demand and figure out what it can do to prevent that in the future.

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Smith estimated that about 50 percent of Lenovo's PCs -- not including tablets or smartphones -- will have touchscreens within the next two to three years.

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Have you seen the lenovo touch offerings? They look so cool!

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Originally Posted by Arthur

Resistance is futile! :)

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They said that about XP, and I managed to avoid that and every windows release since for my main computing needs.
I've tried Windows7 and 8 and they are both ok, the biggest problem is learning all of the commands to make it useful - but that goes for other operating systems too (perhaps with the exception of OSX which is surprisingly intuitive). I tend to use windows as an application now, rather than an operating system per se.

I boot win 7 for games about once per month, but for day to day I have 10 desktops open (actually 5 desktops split over 2 screens). I don't bother closing the machine down as it permanently seems to have a couple of VM's running and several RDP sessions, so I invariably have plenty apps running at once. I don't seem to understand how my working needs are ever going to be helped by a touch-screen, and not at all by windows 8. As a regular 'user' I use a touchscreen android tablet for browsing the web - it works nicely with a bluetooth keyboard but it's not likely to replace my desktop if though I can (technically) do all the same things.

It's not that I'm in any way against new interfaces, and I use a variety depending upon the machine I work at - I even used Unity for over a month! I just don't think touchscreens are likely to help with the way I work. I need to rapidly jump between different users on systems to test things out and have a range of applications at my disposal. XP couldn't help me with this (not least because it would take 3 days to install all the apps I needed), Win7 isn't any better and on first inspection Windows 8 is about 10x worse.
- don't get me started on how windows 7 "works better on newer hardware" XP is still faster on a VM.

For Microsoft the cloud that is windows 8 does have a silver lining; 99% of users don't actually use the operating system (or even know what one is). They just load a browser, SIMS or (rarely) an educational application. I think that is the thing that people forget - its all about the APPS no-one really cares about the operating system and it's usability - open an application, get a job done.

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Originally Posted by glennda

Have you seen the lenovo touch offerings? They look so cool!

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not sure if this is sarcastic or not, I have only seen one lenovo touch enabled device, it was a laptop/tablet swivel thing we had on demo.

The touch screen would ONLY work with the suppliet stylus. you couldnt just use your finger like on any other touch device we have seen. Sent it straight back.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

the biggest problem is learning all of the commands to make it useful - but that goes for other operating systems too (perhaps with the exception of OSX which is surprisingly intuitive).

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OSX is not intuitive to everyone, lots of Apple's intuitiveness is to do with the Ad/Product Training that they screen on infinite repeat on every channel in the world. It is more intuitive for some but I have seen just as many people baffled with OSX as by W7.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

don't get me started on how windows 7 "works better on newer hardware" XP is still faster on a VM.

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Oh FFS, apples and oranges, lets compare a virtual emulated environment with a hardware environment where one is old and optimised around on the VM host and the other is probably not. My chair is not as tall as my ladder, the ladder is obviously better for everything...

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

the biggest problem is learning all of the commands to make it useful - but that goes for other operating systems too

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That's true, and as you say applies to all operating systems, but once you have learnt the basics you are all set. The sad thing is people give up far too easily - sometimes through frustration, but also through an unwillingness to learn anything new. You have to put the effort in (as with most things in life).

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

perhaps with the exception of OS X which is surprisingly intuitive.

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OS X also has its fair share of annoyances, idiosyncrasies and non-obvious features. e.g. proxy icons and scroll bars that disappear and reappear.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

I don't seem to understand how my working needs are ever going to be helped by a touch-screen, and not at all by windows 8.

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I don't know about you, but after using tablets and other devices with touchscreens (Kindle Touch, various digital cameras and camcorders), you get used to touching the screen and naturally want to touch the screen for certain tasks...

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Even in everyday use, I find myself touching the screens of computers (whether they have touchscreens or not) because I can do things faster and more intuitively.

If you want to launch a program on your desktop, which makes more sense? Reach down to a special glass surface and drag a finger across it just long enough to land a floating pointer arrow on top of the icon, and then tap? Or simply reach up to a visible icon and tap it? Why try to aim that pointer at a little X icon, or remember keyboard shortcuts like Alt-F4, when I can just swipe down from the top of the screen to close a Windows 8 program? Why painstakingly zoom a web browser in 10 percent increments using a disembodied keyboard or trackpad when you can smoothly manipulate it between your fingers with pinch-to-zoom? I now find myself doing, or at least wishing I could do, these things all the time. (Source)

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As the article above mentions, touch is an additional input method - you use it when you need it. Trackpad gestures are the same. Two-finger scrolling on a MacBook's trackpad is much easier than using the scroll/space bars or arrow keys.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

it's all about the APPS no-one really cares about the operating system and its usability - open an application, get a job done.

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The OS is very important, although a lot of people may not realise it. They certainly notice when things go wrong or don't work as expected e.g. videos or DVDs won't play because the OS doesn't have the correct codecs installed; or Windows (XP) aborts the entire file transfer because it comes across a file which is in use or the filename/path is too long. There are countless other examples.

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Originally Posted by CHR1S

Well, that's the issue, its a full screen, over complex, under developed, moving checker board! Than in most circumstances requires much more time/effort/brain power to do simple things than a traditional start menu ever did.

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I'm still not seeing it takes more time/effort/brain power; it's just a different way of doing things.

According to Julie Larson-Green, it takes between 2-14 days to adjust to Windows 8 and over 90% of Windows 8 users don't have an issue finding the new Start Screen or Charms bar. :)

The Woman Charged With Making Windows 8 Succeed « MIT Technology Review
Julie Larson-Green explains why Microsoft felt it was necessary to rethink an operating system used by 1.2 billion people.

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How long does it take people to adjust?
Two days to two weeks is what we used to say in Office, and it’s similar in Windows 8. We do a “living with Windows” program where we watched people over a series of months in their household. A lot of people don’t have trouble upfront.

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What data do you have on how people buying Windows 8 are reacting?
When you sign into your Windows PC, one of the things you get asked is whether you’ll be part of our customer experience improvement program, and if you will, then you’re sending some data to us. Everyone gets asked that. We get terabytes and terabytes of data every day, and we can’t possibly use it all. So far we’re seeing very encouraging things. Over 90 percent of customers, from our data, use the charms and find the start screen all in the first session. Even if you’re a desktop user, over time there’s a cutover point around six weeks where you start using the new things more than the things you’re familiar with.

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Why was it necessary to make such broad changes in Windows 8?
When Windows was first created 25 years ago, the assumptions about the world and what computing could do and how people were going to use it were completely different. It was at a desk, with a monitor. Before Windows 8 the goal was to launch into a window, and then you put that window away and you got another one. But with Windows 8, all the different things that you might want to do are there at a glance with the Live Tiles. Instead of having to find many little rocks to look underneath, you see a kind of dashboard of everything that’s going on and everything you care about all at once. It puts you closer to what you’re trying to get done.

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I love this bit, "When Windows was first created 25 years ago, the assumptions about the world and what computing could do and how people were going to use it were completely different. It was at a desk, with a monitor. "

Hmm they very people who i believe mainly have issues with Windows 8 are those at a desk with a monitor... and i bet a HUGE amount of PC's are still used this way in esspecially in the work place or education, which is why the Pro/Enterprise versions should have shipped with a start menu and been desktop not metro by default!

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Originally Posted by Quackers

I bet a HUGE amount of PC's are still used this way in especially in the work place or education

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Laptops are more popular than desktops in UK schools. I assume this trend has increased since the report below was carried out two years ago. :(

Schools favour laptops over desktops for first time « PC Pro / BESA Report (PDF)

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20 September 2010: UK schools make a significant shift towards the adoption of laptop computers, a nationwide survey of 1,379 schools has found, with twice the demand for laptops than desktops.

The findings support the increasing move by schools away from isolated computer rooms and towards embedded ICT across the curriculum. Laptops are increasingly used in the classroom environment to share ideas and make learning more flexible.

The British Educational Suppliers Association (BESA) findings come from the 14th annual survey into the opinions and trends of "ICT in UK State Schools". The highly anticipated research, carried out in conjunction with the National Education Research Panel (NERP) showed that while only 13 percent of schools have an extensive requirement for desktop computers, the percentage increases to 30 percent for laptop computers.

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Originally Posted by Arthur

Laptops are more popular than desktops in UK schools. I assume this trend has increased since the report below was carried out two years ago. :(

Schools favour laptops over desktops for first time « PC Pro / BESA Report (PDF)

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odd thing to quote in the 'defense' of windows8 because it also says that tablets really haven't taken off in schools.

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Even if you’re a desktop user, over time there’s a cutover point around six weeks where you start using the new things more than the things you’re familiar with.

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six weeks ! and that's from micorsofts own research from early adopters. Not exactly an easy transition.

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Originally Posted by SYNACK

Oh FFS, apples and oranges, lets compare a virtual emulated environment with a hardware environment where one is old and optimised around on the VM host and the other is probably not. My chair is not as tall as my ladder, the ladder is obviously better for everything...

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In the context of what I was saying, I'm using a lot of virtual machines and tend to treat windows as an application - or rather as middleware to run an application. The majority of applications we run in school can be used from a web browser and there are now only a small proportion of educational apps that don't run this way. Managing a lot of virtual desktops is quite simple, it saves money on hardware and allws non web based apps to run properly on low spec and PXE bootable hardware. It isn;t the best environment for everything - but if you can mitigate against malware and virus problems easily by rebooting the machine into a 'clean' state so continuing to use XP is still a viable option.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

In the context of what I was saying, I'm using a lot of virtual machines and tend to treat windows as an application - or rather as middleware to run an application. The majority of applications we run in school can be used from a web browser and there are now only a small proportion of educational apps that don't run this way. Managing a lot of virtual desktops is quite simple, it saves money on hardware and allws non web based apps to run properly on low spec and PXE bootable hardware. It isn;t the best environment for everything - but if you can mitigate against malware and virus problems easily by rebooting the machine into a 'clean' state so continuing to use XP is still a viable option.

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You still have that Window where it is comped though and you'd need to shutdown all the active ones. You're right, in your specific usage pattern it is mostly mitagatable, I prefer just avoiding the foothold situations to start with.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

odd thing to quote in the 'defense' of Windows 8

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Not really. At my school laptops outnumber desktops. I can see Windows 8 hybrid laptops with 14-19 hour batteries (Envy X2 / Vivo Tab / ATIV Smart PC) being very popular in the future.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

it also says that tablets really haven't taken off in schools.

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The first iPad was barely five months old when that report was published in 2010. Schools are not known for being early adopters of new technology.

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Originally Posted by CyberNerd

six weeks! and that's from Microsoft's own research from early adopters. Not exactly an easy transition.

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I took more than six weeks to learn to drive a car. That's terrible, isn't it! :confused:

You can't expect to learn something instantly (unless you live in The Matrix that is).

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Originally Posted by Arthur

Not really. At my school laptops outnumber desktops. I can see Windows 8 hybrid laptops with 14-19 hour batteries (Envy X2 / Vivo Tab / ATIV Smart PC) being very popular in the future.

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+1 one of the biggest criticisms about tablets is that they are poorly suited to extensive work, if the tablet and laptop can be successfully cross pollenated it will actually spur progress.