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Windows 8 Thread, Windows 8 Consumer Preview Available 29th Feb in Technical; Edit: install just finished on the Q1 but Metro apps won't run as screen resolution is lower than 1024x768... that's ...
  1. #151
    gshaw's Avatar
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    Edit: install just finished on the Q1 but Metro apps won't run as screen resolution is lower than 1024x768... that's a massive chunk of netbooks and other similar sized devices Microsoft has ruled out... funny thing is Metro looks fine on it so what difference another 100 or so pixels would make is beyond me...

    @Arthur

    Tabs... having those at the top makes less sense than the URL bar which, as I say has been in the same place on every browser on every platform since the dawn of time... inconsistent with every other device out there which doesn't seem like a great idea tbh

    Windows key... great if I want to open the (full screen) Start screen but not so clever for the charms, window switcher etc

    Auto multitasking... as I used in my example, I open the webcam app... I close the webcam... device stays active even when I want it gone... very irritating

    Pinned apps... so I either have to have a huge taskbar filled with pinned apps or on my desktop (which I can't see when apps are open) unless I want to have my entire screen taken up to launch use the Metro UI... riiiight. I don't want to break my concentration to the app I'm currently working on to launch another but with the Start screen it's a case of "type in Word, concentration... want another app... START SCREEN HELLO LOTS OF APPS... back to Word... what was I doing again?" This isn't just aimed at Microsoft, I hate Ubuntu's Unity equally (was enough to make me switch to Mint)

    Lack of Start Menu also looks to have killed jump lists, which I find incredibly useful

    And as far as the mouse gestures go the Windows 8 gestures appear to fly in the fact of all previous mouse-related feedback Microsoft gave about not needing to be too accurate with your movements and aiming clicks to get things done. Using 8 at the moment feels like I have to get the pointer in exactly the right place and do exactly the right movement to get things to happen... once this install finishes I'll see if it's better on a tablet (I suspect it is) but on a desktop it's just plain annoying. As for the suggestion of increasing the pointer speed... lol is all I can say

    Just can't see how it's making my productivity better at the moment over 7 when used on anything other than a tablet... must try harder Microsoft...
    Last edited by gshaw; 6th March 2012 at 06:35 PM.

  2. #152

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    You could kinda see this whole *full screen* approach coming with office. Office had backstage which was basically a full screen file properties dialogue and removal of some drop down menu items.
    I hope someone does kinda stop the full screen approach going too nuts as I fear the day when I have to open 3 devices in full screen to change my mouse sensitivity...
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 6th March 2012 at 06:27 PM.

  3. #153

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    I've got it on a Dell Latitude ST tablet. I like it on that platform.

    But God help us all putting this into our schools. I can't imagine needing to teach people a basically ENTIRELY new way of doing desktop computing. XP, Vista, 7, etc... all same basic principles. 8, completely different. Yes, there's a desktop and us techies can figure it out, but can you imagine a normal user with this? I just think it's going to be a disaster in those types of settings. For me personally, I think it's interesting and will be fun to learn and mess with. I just think for the desktop you should be in "Windows 7" mode basically and be able to go to the Metro side. I think on phones, tablets you should be in the Metro side with the option to go to the full desktop.

    And don't strip features out of the full desktop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    install just finished on the Q1 but Metro apps won't run as screen resolution is lower than 1024x768...
    Even regular desktop applications have issues running on netbooks. e.g. Handbrake refuses to run and I am sure you have come across dialog boxes which are too tall to fit on the screen making it impossible to reach the OK/Cancel buttons? The ribbon in Office 2010 is also a PITA because it takes up such a large proportion of the screen (134 pixels), and scrolling vertically for miles on webpages is not exactly fun on such a tiny screen. Luckily our school had the foresight to avoid netbooks entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    what difference another 100 or so pixels would make is beyond me...
    Not sure, but there probably is a good reason (with data to back it up).

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    Tabs... having those at the top makes less sense than the URL bar which, as I say has been in the same place on every browser on every platform since the dawn of time...
    The 2nd and 3rd most popular browsers in the world (Google Chrome & Firefox), both have tabs on top. It's ridiculous to expect certain features to be set in stone for the rest of time just because they have always been that way.

    I think the main reason for not having the address bar at the top is because closing apps requires you to move your finger (or drag your mouse) from the top of the screen to the bottom. If you had the address bar at the top, it would get in the way and there would be lots of people who would click into it by mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    Windows key... great if I want to open the (full screen) Start screen but not so clever for the charms, window switcher etc
    Windows key + C opens the Charms bar without going to the Start Screen. So does moving the mouse to the top/bottom right corners. Check out the list of keyboard shortcuts here.

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    Auto multitasking... as I used in my example, I open the webcam app... I close the webcam... device stays active even when I want it gone... very irritating
    Bug perhaps? The Consumer Preview is a beta after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    Pinned apps... so I either have to have a huge taskbar filled with pinned apps or on my desktop (which I can't see when apps are open) unless I want to have my entire screen taken up to launch use the Metro UI... riiiight.
    What's wrong with pinning your most used applications shortcuts to the taskbar? If you run out of room, put the rest on the left-hand side of the Start Screen.

    When programs are maximized, it doesn't matter if you are running Windows 95 or Windows 8, you still won't be able to see your desktop icons.

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    I don't want to break my concentration to the app I'm currently working on to launch another but with the Start screen it's a case of "type in Word, concentration... want another app... START SCREEN HELLO LOTS OF APPS... back to Word... what was I doing again?"
    What sort of applications are you opening while typing in Word? If concentrating is that much of a problem, open them before-hand and then Alt-Tab between them?

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    Lack of Start Menu also looks to have killed jump lists, which I find incredibly useful
    Jump lists are still there (unless you mean something else?).



    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    And as far as the mouse gestures go the Windows 8 gestures appear to fly in the fact of all previous mouse-related feedback Microsoft gave about not needing to be too accurate with your movements and aiming clicks to get things done.
    I don't think moving the mouse cursor into any of the corners is as difficult as you make it out to be. I can do it with my eyes closed, because I know the direction to move my hand and that when the cursor reaches the corner it won't go any further.
    Last edited by Arthur; 6th March 2012 at 11:03 PM.

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    Finally!

    Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call For Common Sense

    I've been using the Windows 8 Consumer Preview for over a week now, and have been listening to the bitching and moaning on Twitter and via email since, oh, about 6:45 am PT last Wednesday. (You know, roughly speaking.) And as I write up front in my Windows books, maybe it's time I establish my expectations. For you.

    Yes, I'm going on a rant here. And, yes, this time it's personal.

    I'm sort of amazed I need to communicate this. After all, you're a power user, right? But I am distressed at the absolute lack of sophistication I see here. And it needs to stop.

    All I'm looking for is a little common sense: Either test the Windows 8 Consumer Preview or don't. But if you're intent on using it as if it were Windows 7, please, I'm begging you. Stop wasting your time. And stop wasting mine.

    A few maxims off the top of my head.

    I will not help you get the Start button back. It's interesting to me how many people rushed out to download the Windows 8 Consumer Preview and then, within minutes, suddenly needed a hack to get the old Start button back. Folks, it's time to grow a pair and actually test the new system, provide feedback to Microsoft, and see if you can actually learn to live with it. And you can't do that by installing a third party utility that puts an old-school Start button on the Windows 8 desktop. And no, I will not help you do this. Nor will I do it myself.

    The desktop is not the OS. It's an app. Lost amid all the whining about not being able to boot into the desktop and not having the old Start button there either is a simple fact: The desktop is not the OS. In fact, while this isn't technically true, conceptually, the desktop is just an app. The Windows 8 OS is comprised of Windows Runtime (WinRT), the Start screen shell and its Metro-style environment.

    And please, dear God, think about this for a moment: All of the system-level stuff--the full screen and toast-based notifications, the Switcher, the system-wide Back functionality, the Start experience and Start tip, and the Charms--are all Metro stuff. Even when you're using the desktop. Because THAT is the operating system. Now use it, deal with it, and figure it out.

    Microsoft is not restyling Explorer/desktop. For a reason. Some huge crowd of people failed an intelligence test last week when some tech enthusiast posted a Photoshop-created image of what a Metro-like Explorer/desktop environment could look like to a tech blog, and they all swooned over it. "Microsoft should hire that guy!" one particularly clueless commenter added, pretty much summing up the feelings of the gullible audience. Folks, no. Microsoft is focusing on creating a brand new platform in Windows 8, not making the legacy platform that is the past look better.

    And there's a very good reason why they are correct to do so: For those many, many businesses that will rollout Windows 8 alongside Windows 7, the existing desktop environment looks and works almost exactly like its predecessor, and has no compatibility or long-term testing issues. That's the goal for the Windows 8 desktop. All the exciting and new stuff is in Metro. Obviously.

    They're called App Previews. For a reason. No more complaints about the Windows 8 App Previews, please. They are called App Previews for a reason and are limited in functionality simply because they are about 6 months behind the rest of the platform. Each of these apps has a Feedback button in the App Bar. If you have an issue, please--please--write to Microsoft and let them know. And then install an acceptable alternative and use both side-by-side. You know, so you can get work done too.

    Shutting down is not difficult. It's just different. The silliest waste of time argument I've seen about Windows 8 so far, and the one that is absolutely the furthest from a truly useful conversation, is that shutting down the PC is somehow harder, or "more mouse travel," or "more clicks" than it was in Windows 7. Folks, spare me. The people complaining about this are the same ones that were complaining until a week ago that, get this, shutting down Windows over the past 15 years actually required tapping the "Start" button. I mean, how silly is that? /chuckle

    Sigh.

    Shutting down Windows 8 is easy, and that's true no matter which input type you use:

    • Keyboard. WINKEY + I, UP ARROW, ENTER, U.
    • Mouse. Charms, Settings, Power, Shutdown.
    • Touch. Charms, Settings, Power, Shutdown.

    But just so we're clear, it's a modern PC. Why the frick are you shutting down a PC? It's not 1989, people.

  6. #156


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    How I learned to stop worrying and love Windows 8 « ExtremeTech

    Just because Windows 8 is a good tablet OS does not make it a poor desktop OS. This is faulty logic, and exactly the kind of kneejerk reaction that many power users (including myself) have fallen prey to. When you get right down to it, the only change that could possibly be construed as “bad” is the introduction of the Start Screen. Yes, some cosmetic bits have changed — and yes, the Windows orb has disappeared — but really, despite the visual differences, Windows 8 will be remarkably similar to Windows 7, and I hope we can all agree that Windows 7 is one of the best operating systems out there.

    [...]

    The sad truth is, the noisiest naysaying pundits and personalities are also power users who should know that almost everything in Windows 8 will be alterable with third-party utilities anyway. Microsoft has already said that the maligned ribbon menu in Windows 8 Explorer will be completely at the whim of third-party utilities, and historically these utilities have had access to just about every Windows UI element. We’ve already seen an app that recreates the Windows orb and Start menu, and it won’t be long until someone works out how to disable the Start Screen. Heck, we wouldn’t be surprised if the final retail version of Windows 8 has a config setting for it.

    Windows 8, then, is different. Once you get past the pungent-smelling fear of change, Windows 8 isn’t actually worse — and admittedly isn’t much better than Windows 7 — but it is different, and that’s a problem for some.

  7. #157

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    Flawed because it said: trust me, your behavior will be almost entirely unchanged.. Might be true for his or someone else's, but certainly not mine.

    It's a pair of articles, here's the other one for balance:

    Windows 8 may drive me to Linux

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    Your article says the author has used Windows 8 extensively, but he then goes on to say the following, proving that he hasn't.

    Want to close an application without using Alt-F4? Forget it.
    Signing in is a chore because you have to "sweep away" a splash screen and log in via a Microsoft account
    If he has trouble using Windows 8, how on earth did he cope when going from MS-DOS to Windows 1.0 or Windows 3.1 to 95?

  9. #159

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    Uh huh.. I think he also missed an apostrophe towards the end. ;b

  10. #160
    zag
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    I remember loads of people defending vista when it came out as well.

    I even think some schools upgraded immediately!! Oh dear

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    I remember loads of people defending vista when it came out as well.

    I even think some schools upgraded immediately!! Oh dear
    vista wasnt that bad imo

    it is to win7 what win 2k is to winxp same underlying stuff with a prettier interface ans some extra bits i never got the hate for vista i think most of that was because it was different and by the time win7 came along we were used to it (though granted it runs better in the same pc)

  12. #162

    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    Vista, pre-SP1, was, let's just say, not ideal. Once they'd installed the new kernel and patched some things it ran a hell of a lot better. I do have some sympaties for Microsoft on this one. They needed a new OS, but the feature list for it kept getting mangled (remember WinFS?) and they had to get what they could out of the door.
    I'm working on a Vista laptop this morning, and TBH, it's running just as well as I would expect a W8 machine too. I don't have a problem with Vista....now.
    Last edited by Dos_Box; 7th March 2012 at 11:03 AM.

  13. #163
    gshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    The 2nd and 3rd most popular browsers in the world (Google Chrome & Firefox), both have tabs on top. It's ridiculous to expect certain features to be set in stone for the rest of time just because they have always been that way.
    They also have the address bar in a sensible place, tried using the Metro browser this morning and it's just stupid looking at the bottom of the screen to enter an address

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    I think the main reason for not having the address bar at the top is because closing apps requires you to move your finger (or drag your mouse) from the top of the screen to the bottom. If you had the address bar at the top, it would get in the way and there would be lots of people who would click into it by mistake.
    Reinventing the wheel for the sake of it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    Windows key + C opens the Charms bar without going to the Start Screen. So does moving the mouse to the top/bottom right corners. Check out the list of keyboard shortcuts here.
    Fair do's, still not the most natural combo in the world to use on a daily basis but better than the awkward mouse movements



    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post


    What's wrong with pinning your most used applications shortcuts to the taskbar? If you run out of room, put the rest on the left-hand side of the Start Screen.

    When programs are maximized, it doesn't matter if you are running Windows 95 or Windows 8, you still won't be able to see your desktop icons.
    Because I run a machine with bundles of RAM and loads of apps open, I don't particularly want a huge cluttered looking taskbar with every app I *might* need on there when the indexed Start Menu let me do the same thing nice and quickly without switching to full screen mode... it's such a jarring experience on a desktop to use an interface that has no value to me outside of a tablet



    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    What sort of applications are you opening while typing in Word? If concentrating is that much of a problem, open them before-hand and then Alt-Tab between them?
    On an average day I might be doing a report, then might need to jump into Photoshop to quickly edit a graphic for the website so I'll fire up an Explorer session. At the same time I'll need email, then a bit of web browsing. Also run vCenter, all of which I might want quickly. Again why do I need to change an efficient way of working for an inefficient one for the sake of Metro?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    Jump lists are still there (unless you mean something else?).


    They are but see the point about the taskbar \ Start Menu list...


    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post

    I don't think moving the mouse cursor into any of the corners is as difficult as you make it out to be. I can do it with my eyes closed, because I know the direction to move my hand and that when the cursor reaches the corner it won't go any further.
    a) you're obviously not running dual screens
    b) how big is your monitor, on 22" and above it's a bit of a trek from one side to the other!

    As for the http://www.extremetech.com/computing...-me-to-linux/2 article yes he missed a couple of points with the Alt+F4 and logon screen but again initially you don't think to press a key to remove the lock screen... only discovered that when wondering if CTRL+ALT+DEL would work instead of mouse dragging the background out the way.

    Also no response about the mismatch in the UI of the Start screen shuffling along with a mouse swish yet apps requiring horizontal dragging?
    Last edited by gshaw; 7th March 2012 at 09:59 AM.

  14. #164

    X-13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I don't have a problem with Vista....now.
    Same here. I've been messing about with Vista Business [SP1] and it's actually better than I remember.

    I haven't tried out Win8 yet... I'm trying to get a virtual machine set up, but for some reason I can't think of how to apply the same restrictions as the normal desktops.

    There is [censored] all in gpedit.msc... Literally [censored] all. Not even our proxy settings.


    Shutting down Windows 8 is easy, and that's true no matter which input type you use:


    Keyboard. WINKEY + I, UP ARROW, ENTER, U.

    Mouse. Charms, Settings, Power, Shutdown.

    Touch. Charms, Settings, Power, Shutdown.

    But just so we're clear, it's a modern PC. Why the frick are you shutting down a PC? It's not 1989, people.

    Start > Shut down > OK.

    Win Key > up > Enter[x2]


    Sounds quicker the old way.


    Also, maybe I don't want my computer on all the time. No power useage > low power usage. Electricity is [censored] expensive.
    Last edited by X-13; 7th March 2012 at 09:59 AM.

  15. #165


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    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post

    Start > Shut down > OK.

    Win Key > up > Enter[x2]


    Sounds quicker the old way.


    Also, maybe I don't want my computer on all the time. No power useage > low power usage. Electricity is [censored] expensive.
    or even create a shortcut to shutdown /l and set a keyboard shortcut say shift ctrl l

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